Freethought & Rationalism Archive

tanya · 02-05-2013, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the great scholar

No but its not illogical to say that Jews only write approvingly of individuals and traditions which conform to Jewish Law - hence limiting who and what is deemed appropriate or acceptable.

Then Jews never wrote about Plato, or Darius, or Kublai Khan, or Julius Caesar? Jews in China did not write about Dao de Jing?

Your idea is both wrong, and sophomoric, though, it is an improvement, compared with many of your previous posts in this thread....

Quote:

Originally Posted by great scholar

Haven't heard a single example in 500 plus posts

I suspect that the great scholar intends to write: "I haven't READ (or I have not yet encountered) a single example...."

Try reading post 395, again, for the first time.

I am still waiting for you to furnish the quote from Philo, that supports your notion that the Therapeutae read Hebrew texts.

In the meantime, since your Tonto failed, why don't you come to her rescue, by giving us a specific reference in the Hebrew literature, which I am quite certain, you know very well, documenting a REQUIREMENT for Jews to pray at sunrise and sunset. Clearly, Psalm 72, verse 5 doesn't cut it. Alternatively, if you know of no such obligation written in the Hebrew text of the Torah, perhaps you can instead, explain to us, WHY Philo mentions existence of a "sacred shrine" in every home. Is that a common trait among Jews, as it is among Hindus, and Buddhists? Every home in Japan, or VietNam, has a small cubicle, in the main room of the house, mounted about six feet off the ground, triangular in shape, extending out, from the wall, about 8 inches. There one will find incense burning, a bowl of fruit, and a photograph, if one is available of the 19th century parents or grandparents. The most religious homes will add to that, a statue of Buddha. In China, the statue will be of Chairman Mao, same idea.

stephan huller · 02-05-2013, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Then Jews never wrote about Plato, or Darius, or Kublai Khan, or Julius Caesar? Jews in China did not write about Dao de Jing?

'The Jews' typically act like people at this forum. The whole basis for whether they like or dislike a particular ruler is based on how they benefit the people of Israel. Let's take your examples one by one. Philo loved Plato but he had to add that Plato was instructed by Jews so that satisfies my initial observation. I have never heard a Jewish writer say anything about any of the other people mentioned.

We should also remember that the most common statement about the Jews in ancient pagan writers is that they embodied a 'hatred for the human race.' To that end, things haven't changed. They are still accused of this today (albeit in slightly different words - 'trying to take over the world' which is also evidenced in antiquity'). The idea that Jews set themselves apart from the pagans is consistent throughout time because of the first commandment (among others).

The point is that as much as y'all would like to run about the yard making up shit as you go along the consistent nature of the Jewish religion won't let this happen. A Jew can't be a pagan. Even when he eats Kung Pao shrimp at a Chinese restaurant, at the back of his mind he has misgivings.

tanya · 02-05-2013, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oops, the great scholar neglected to cite a reference, well, maybe Socrates was Jewish

Philo loved Plato but he had to add that Plato was instructed by Jews so that satisfies my initial observation.

Julius Caesar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Darius the Great came to power in the Persian empire and ordered the completion of the temple. According to the Bible, the prophets Haggai and Zechariah urged this work

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

One of the Ilkhanate rulers, Arghun Khan, even preferred Jews and Christians for the administrative positions and appointed Sa'd al-Daula, a Jew, as his vizier. The appointment, however, provoked resentment from the Muslim clergy, and after Arghun's death in 1291, al-Daula was murdered and Persian Jews suffered a period of violent persecutions from the Muslim populace instigated by the clergy. The Orthodox Christian historian Bar Hebraeus wrote that the violence committed against the Jews during that period "neither tongue can utter, nor the pen write down".[34]

Ghazan Khan's conversion to Islam in 1295 heralded for Persian Jews a pronounced turn for the worse, as they were once again relegated to the status of dhimmis. Öljeitü, Ghazan Khan's successor, destroyed many synagogues and decreed that Jews had to wear a distinctive mark on their heads; Christians endured similar persecutions. Under pressure, some Jews converted to Islam. The most famous such convert was Rashid-al-Din Hamadani, a physician, historian and statesman, who adopted Islam in order to advance his career at Öljeitü's court. However, in 1318 he was executed on charges of poisoning Öljeitü and for several days crowds had been carrying his head around his native city of Tabriz, chanting "This is the head of the Jew who abused the name of God; may God's curse be upon him!"

The summer garden of Kublai Khan at Xanadu is the subject of Samuel Taylor Coleridge's 1797 poem Kubla Khan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shalom Auslander

...
as was Samuel Taylor Coleridge—the story goes that he dreamt the poem “Kubla Khan,” sat up to write it down, and was interrupted by a knock on the door. When he attempted to finish transcribing it, it was gone. The poem remained unfinished.

Christopher Rubinstein reads
A Study of Coleridge’s Three Great Poems: Christabel, Kubla Khan and
The Rime of The Ancient Mariner
by Warren Stevenson (The Edward Mellen Press, 2001)

Quote:

The Jew Hyman Hurwitz (1770-1841) became a close friend of Coleridge in 1816 and this friendship
continued even when he left Highgate to reside at nicely named ‘Grenada
Cottage’ in Southwark. Few people havenow heard of Hurwitz. He was an
eminent Hebrew scholar, accomplished linguist, author of 17 books, and in
1828 due partly to Coleridge’s recommendation he became the first Jewish
professor in England, Professor of Hebrew at the new University of London.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The existence of Jews in China was unknown to Europeans until 1605, when Matteo Ricci, then established in Beijing, was visited by a Jew from Kaifeng, who had come to Beijing to take examinations for his jinshi degree. According to his account in De Christiana expeditione apud Sinas,[9] his visitor, named Ai Tian (Ai T'ien) (??) explained that he worshipped one God. It is recorded that when he saw a Christian image of Mary with Jesus, he believed it to be a picture of Rebecca with Esau or Jacob. Ai said that many other Jews resided in Kaifeng; they had a splendid synagogue (??? libai si) and possessed a great number of written materials and books.

stephan huller · 02-05-2013, 02:50 PM

I don't see the point in any of this. As I said, Cyrus was made a messiah because he let the Jews go back to their land. What could be more instructive than this? Philo condemns Gaius for being wicked. Same thing with Haman.

tanya · 02-05-2013, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by great scholar

I have never heard a Jewish writer say anything about any of the other people mentioned.

...

stephan huller · 02-05-2013, 03:07 PM

I still don't get it

aa5874 · 02-05-2013, 03:16 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

The text mentions Non-Jewish features of the Therapeutae.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Like what? Haven't heard a single example in 500 plus posts

That is precisely your problem. You do not read 'VC' for yourself.

Philo's On the Contemplative Life

Quote:

... They have also writings of ancient men, who having been the founders of one sect or another have left behind them many memorials of the allegorical system of writing and explanation, whom they take as a kind of model, and imitate the general fashion of their sect...

The teachings of the Therapeutae are MODELED after non-Jewish writings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The Therapeutae is NOT identified as a Jewish group in 'VC'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

That's ridiculous but the original statement was they were connected with the Essenes who are identified by Philo as Jewish

Philo did NOT connect the Essenes to the Therapeutae as Jews or of Jewish origin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5874

The Therapeutae share features of other sects like the Christians of the Jesus cult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But Christianity is also a Jewish sect so that wouldn't be surprising.

Philo did NOT say such a thing. Where do you get your stories about Jewish sects??

You seem to have no idea what Jews believe about the Messiah. Just because Christians read or accept Jewish Mythology does not make them Jews or of Jewish origin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

....But the articles I cited make specific reference to the report of Alexandrian Jewish interest in the 364 calendar dated to 200 years before Jesus. Irrelevant point but see above (i.e. Christians may well have been related to the Therapeutae but the Therapeutae were first)...

200 years before the stories of Jesus there were non-Jews in Alexandria that worshiped Gods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The Therapeutae share features of non-Jewish sects today. In "Church History", around 1600 years ago, the Therapeutae were considered early Christians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

So what? It was quite common for Christians to interpret Jewish scriptures as pointing to Jesus. Doesn't mean that's true. It only shows a pattern of misidentifying 'Jewish things' as 'Christian things.'

Well, I am extremely delighted to hear you talk about misidentifying 'Jewish things'.

You are like the Christians. You have misidentified the Therapeutae as Jews.

May I remind you that it was the Essenes that were specifically identified as Jews or of Jewish origin.

Toto · 02-05-2013, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

(attention, quote mining ahead, be careful)

You admit that you are just trying to cause trouble?

Quote:

But, Toto, I was not arguing that some Jews do or do not pray at sunrise and sunset. I was arguing that there exists no FORMAL WRITTEN doctrine, within Judaism, DEMANDING prayer to YHWH, at those two times of each day, seven days a week, AS THERE HAD BEEN, for the followers of Apastamba, five hundred years before Philo.

This is a very obtuse argument. Does Philo say that the Theraputae he describes prayed twice a day because there was a written doctrine that demanded prayer?

You have shifted the goalposts. Your original argument was that prayer twice a day at sunrise and sunset could be counted as evidence against the Theraputae being Jewish. But now that you have been shown that Jews sometimes do pray at those two times per day, you want some written doctrine.

Are you trying to have a serious discussion?

Quote:

... I argue that Philo makes the effort to elaborate the customs of the Therapeutae, with respect to prayer at sunrise and sunset, BECAUSE this conduct is so unique, and so distinct, so very different from the conduct of Jews.

But it's not necessarily different, as we have seen. Surely if Philo wanted to say that they prayed at sunrise and sunset UNLIKE THE JEWS, he could have said that directly. But he didn't.

Quote:

[re submitting to a scholarly journal]I think that is precisely what I am doing, when I submit my posts to this forum. That is why I enjoy reading some folks' contributions, and dislike reading others. Some posts are truly "scholarly". Others are simply absurdly childish antics.

What you are not doing is listening to the arguments against your position and modifying it where you need to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philo Mos.II,38

Yet who does not know that every language, and Greek especially, abounds in terms, and that the same thought can be put in many shapes by changing single words and whole phrases and suiting the expression to the occasion? This was not the case, we are told with this law of ours, but the Greek words used corresponded literally with the Chaldean exactly suited to the things they indicated. For, just as in geometry and logic, so it seems to me the sense indicated does not admit of variety in the expression which remains unchanged in its original form, so these writers, as it clearly appears, arrived at a wording which corresponded with the matter, and alone, or better than any other, would bring out clearly what was meant.

How could Philo understand "what was meant", in LXX, if he had not compared it to the Hebrew text, extant in his era, text likely comparable to that found in Qumran? I have no doubt, whatsoever, that Philo was completely fluent in Hebrew.

You mean, how could Philo CLAIM TO understand what was meant in the LXX? Possibly by hiring an assistant who was fluent in Hebrew?

Quote:

I believe that the proper analogy, today, is with electronics, and cpu architecture, in particular. A Russian, or Chinese, or Japanese architect, writing about a novel, innovative cpu design, may choose English as the medium of expression, as did Philo choose Greek, but, their thoughts, their culture, their interests, hobbies, and habits, remain, Russian, Chinese, or Japanese, respectively. To argue, based on the brilliance of their communication in English, that they were ignorant of Russian, Chinese or Japanese, would be shortsighted. There is no way that Philo would have written about Moses in Greek, as he did, without having also read the Torah, in Hebrew, in my opinion.

Your analogy seems a bit off. Yes, there are people who are fluent in two or more languages. Does this prove that Philo was? (The answer is NO.) Why did he use the LXX if he was completely fluent in Hebrew?

aa5874 · 02-05-2013, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

...... Yes, there are people who are fluent in two or more languages. Does this prove that Philo was? (The answer is NO.) Why did he use the LXX if he was completely fluent in Hebrew?

Your rhetorical questions are irrelevant to the OP. Philo did NOT ever claim the Therapeutae were Jews or of Jewish origin and that may be one of the reasons it was claimed that they were Christians of the Jesus cult in "Church History".

It would appear the very Church considered that the Therapeutae were Christians.

Now, Why was the Hebrew Bible translated to the Greek LXX??

Why did people in Alexandria speek the Greek language??

Why didn't Philo claim the Therapeutae were Jews?? Why??

The answer is: They were NOT.

mountainman · 02-05-2013, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The list of issues defining this dispute is located here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo%2..._Contemplativa

Yes, you are listing these for the third time. Did you somehow miss my reply to at least one of those that these would only establish that the author of VC was even more Jewish than Philo?

The first time I listed these issues suggesting that "VC" may not have been authored by Philo was at post #148.

The second time was at post #269.

Your response to this (the author was more Jewish than Philo) was made at post #299.

I responded to your reply at posts #301 and #320 as follows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

These factors would all seem to argue that the Therapeuts described in "De Vita Contemplativa" are Jewish and not pagan, since this putative separate author is hostile to Hellenism.

The Early Christians were also hostile to Hellenism.

And the Christian Eusebius used the text of VC" to argue that these therapeutae were Christians.

These factors, coupled with the fact that the Early Church EXPRESSLY preserved "VC" may suggest that the text of "VC" was part of a later Christian fabrication.

By your own logic this putative separate author may have been a Christian.

Quote:

The most frustrating thing about your posting style is that you raise an issue and ignore replies, then raise it again as if no one had said anything.

In this instance as demonstrated above it is your own posting style which has ignored (or more likely simply overlooked) my responses (#301 and #320) to your response (#299). Chili was the only one to respond (#321).

You have therefore yet to address the very reasonable possibility that the Christians (over and above the Jews) were hostile to Hellenism.

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02-05-2013, 02:50 PM	#604
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I don't see the point in any of this. As I said, Cyrus was made a messiah because he let the Jews go back to their land. What could be more instructive than this? Philo condemns Gaius for being wicked. Same thing with Haman.

02-05-2013, 03:07 PM	#606
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I still don't get it

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