aa5874

You are very vague. What is "something from outside the text?"

Well, my conclusion is based on some things from inside the text.

The arrest, trial and crucifixion stories appear to have been derived from inside the OT and this a partial list:

Psalms 41.9, Deuteronomy 19.15, Genesis 9.6, Daniel 7.13, Psalms 27.12, Leviticus 24.16, Psalms 31.13, Deuteronomy 23.18, Zechariah 11.12-13, Isaiah 53.7, Psalms 26.6 , Joshua 2.19, Isaiah 50.6, Psalms 109.25, Psalms 22.8, Isaiah 53.11, Hosea 10.8, Psalms 22.18, Psalms 22.1, Isaiah 53.9, and Psalms 31.5.

No Robots

What about Plato, who wrote:

The just man who is thought unjust will be scourged, racked, bound -- will have his eyes burnt out; and, at last, after suffering every kind of evil, he will be impaled: Then he will understand that he ought to seem only, and not to be, just.

I point this out not because I think that the NT rips off Plato, but because we have to be careful with our reconstruction of literary origins.

aa5874

But, the authors of the Gospels wrote that events surrounding Jesus were fulfilled prophecies according to the scriptures, not from Plato. And, indeed, the authors did appear to use the scriptures to fabricate Jesus.

And, in my KJV Bible, any verse or part of a verse that is found both in the NT and OT are cross-referenced.

Matthew 26.56, "But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled......

Luke 24.27, "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

schilling.klaus

Proper Christianity is essentially Alexandrine philosophy of religion,
thus depends of course on Plato and his heirs like Plutarch.

the Old Testament is used by Christianity in order to verify Plato,
thus the uttermost genius philosopher Numenius of Apamea said
that Plato is the attic-speaking Moses

Klaus Schilling

mountainman

Numenius explains that the
"the soul is retained in the body
as in a Prison , by the impulsive passion."

In the fourth century the author of NHC 6.1
insists that the "Pearl of Wisdom" is to be
found after a Journey on a Road that involves
ascetic practice, leading to the "City of Nine
Gates" -- which is the human body (Gita).

The Healer and physician Lithargoel is not presented
as a prisoner, but as a citizen, of the body. That is
the only difference and it may no be that significant.

That is one reason why I think that the author
of NHC 6.1 is not a christian, but a pythagorean
priest in the lineage of Numenius.

Best wishes,


Pete Brown

aa5874

There is an error in your post schilling.klaus, the sentence starting with "What about Plato....." is originally from No Robots., not from aa5874. You should have posted

Doug Shaver

There are so many varieties of Christianity, I don't think anything could disprove all of them at once. My comment, though, was in reference to the variety that arnoldo apparently embraces.

That would not be a justified inference. If Pilate's nonexistence were proved, then we would know only that one particular inscription either was expertly faked or else was referring to some other Roman official with the same name holding the same office. I'd be inclined toward the former.

Amaleq13

Necessarily so, given the evidence. And rather obvious if one comprehends the logic involved. Do you not understand the logic that requires the conclusion?

And ignoring that logic points outside the text for motivation.

Why keep repeating something already established as false? The crucifixion is clearly not "derived" from Hebrew Scripture.

JayW

The crucifixion could not have been taken from Hebrew scripture,since the New Testament was written in Greek. There is a mention of a Messiah coming in Hebrew scripture,but the Jews don't accept Him as the Messiah,not because they don't believe He existed,because He didn't raise the Temple and set up a Kingdom as was promised. There is a text from Jewish writings that tell of Yeshu being hung for leading Israel astray. He supposedly learned witchcraft in Egypt,and used it to seduce Israel away from God. He was hung on Passover. What makes Scholors believe it is about Jesus Christ is the hanging on Passover and the fact taht He was hung rather than stoned which was the custom.

"There is a tradition (in a Barraitha): They hanged Yeshu on the Sabbath of the Passover. But for forty days before that a herald went in front of him (crying), "Yeshu is to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and seduced Israel and lead them away from God. Anyone who can provide evidence on his behalf should come forward to defend him." When, however, nothing favorable about him was found, he was hanged on the Sabbath of the Passover
Ulla commented: "Do you think that he belongs among those for whom redeeming evidence is sought? Rather, he was a seducer [of whom] the All-merciful has said: 'Show them no pity... and do not shield them.' (Deut 13.8b NRSV In Yeshu's case, however, an exception was made because he was close to those who held [political/religious] authority."

aa5874

I do not understand your logic. Are you claiming that you are vague because the evidence is inconclusive?
So, what is that "vague" something from outside the text?


I have not established that the crucifixion was not derived from Hebrew Scripture, and will continue to consider that the crucifixion was falsely fabricated until evidence show otherwise.

All the information that I have read, so far, suggest to me that Jesus of the NT was never actually human, so Jesus could have never been on a real cross.