Wayne Delia

In the New York Metro area, we have a local weatherman affectionately called "Mr. G" - which is only slightly on topic because, two weeks ago, I debated a few Jehovah's Witnesses who claimed Biblical authority is based on fulfilled prophecies, and I told them that we currently have many modern-day prophets who make stunningly accurate future predictions. We call them "weathermen", and we don't worship them or follow them just because they make demonstrably correct specific "prophesies".

Your conclusion, though, is right on point.

WMD

Wayne Delia

Did you forget that Jesus argued and debated with God several times, such as in the Garden of Gethsemane and while being crucified? If Jesus is God, as you claim here, then the Bible explicitly portrays Him as schizophrenic.

To claim that Abraham believed in Jesus is bullshit. Abraham didn't even mention Jesus's name once, but he's in good company - nobody else in the Old Testament mentioned His name, either. In fact, when communicating directly with God, the Supreme Omnipotent Creator and Ruler of the Universe didn't even mention Jesus's name. So how did Abraham come about this intimate knowledge of Jesus, and where in the Old Testament does it say that Abraham's salvation was based on his faith in Jesus's future crucifixion and resurrection many centuries or millennia in the future?

Suppose there's a Christian lunatic fringe cult, which believes that their cult leader is the second coming of Jesus - say, David Koresh as an example. Would the Branch Davidians be justified in claiming that Abraham believed in David Koresh, simply because the cult members thought Koresh was God, and they knew Abraham believed in God? If you don't agree with that, then you've undercut your own line of reasoning.

Frankly, I still don't give a shit. "My holy book says you're a potty mouth" - not very persuasive.

Can I infer from your lack of a substantive answer that you agree with my analysis, or at least you concede the point? If you had an answer or an explanation why religious faith isn't the way I described it, why were you too lazy to post it?

WMD

Wayne Delia

So can we conclude that anyone claiming to be a Christian who commits a crime of any severity is not really a Christian? That would go a long way toward the cause of dishonest apologetics. It would support the "No True Scotsman" fallacy that no criminals are Christians, and if legitimate (which, of course, it isn't) would provide a clear, unmistakable, purely objective standard of whether someone is or isn't a True Christian:

If they have committed a crime, then they're not.
If they haven't committed a crime, then they might be, but not necessarily.

The reason that analysis isn't legitimate is pretty much the reason that the No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy - it's an ad hoc modification of the group definition criteria "after the fact" based on excluding undesirable members of the group from remaining in the group. You depend on that more than usual, and that's why I for one don't take you particularly seriously.

WMD

Wayne Delia

If you actually think that's a representation of love, you're sorely mistaken, and I can only attribute that to some severely dysfunctional upbringing which I will do you the favor of blaming on Christianity, instead of speculating that your parents brought you up in that bizarre manner.

On the other hand, if you were being intentionally sarcastic, I don't see how you think that Jesus will be happy about you doing that. Your witnessing for Jesus has taken a very bad turn for the worse. Is Jesus as sarcastic as you are?

WMD

Wayne Delia

Yeah, but that was said by Paul, in his epistle to the Ephesians. Right now the Christian agenda calls for the contradictory verses from James.

Amen!

WMD

Wayne Delia

I'm pretty sure Jesus had all sorts of other hoops for people to jump through, and I've got the Bible references to back them up!

According to Paul's universal castigation and condemnation of "all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God," by deductive reasoning, there are no True Christians.

WMD

EarlOfLade

In your mind, probably...
I think they themselves begs to differ and so does a lot of other people, why are you right and they wrong?
And you know that it is not the same because?????

Pastor's Nightmare

Success is only one thing, which makes a person happy. To base happiness solely on success usually does not lead to happiness for most people.

That said, my problem with Christianity is that it promotes an inaccurate view of human nature. And, this inaccurate view of human nature has caused a ridiculous amount of human misery throughout the ages.

1.)The Bible contributed heavily to bringing about the Dark Ages in Europe. Biblical prohibitions on money lending effectively killed the money supply. People weren't even allowed to lend money at a small interest. So, very few people leant money to anyone. This contracted the money supply, which stifled economic activity helping to bring about the Dark Ages.

2.)Hitler manipulated Christian Beliefs to do what he did. See the following link:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

3.)We've all heard about the Witch Hunts.

Due to the intelligence and goodness of human beings, Christian symbolism has been reinterpreted to be more consistent with human nature. In doing so, Christianity has become kinder, gentler, and more loving.

Even The Bible itself has been rewritten. The New International Version of The Bible is far kinder and more loving than The King James Version of The Bible. Phrases have been altered in subtle ways to promote a more loving, less bigoted Bible. However, there's only so much one can do using subtle changes.

I do know this. A year after I no longer considered myself Christian, I became more tolerant. My mother also became more tolerant after she decided Christianity was not for her. She became more tolerant of homosexuals, and she no longer says stuff like "Jews are money-minded people that don't care about society."

Not every Christian is antisemitic and not every Christian hates homosexuals, but my observations indicate that The Bible promotes bigotry in the form of shadow feelings. It isn't always overt. The problem is that tolerance is not acceptance. And, there's no way to care about someone who is going to hell for eternity after they die. As a Christian that believes in eternal hell, there are only two options when dealing with a non-Christian. If you care about them, put a lot of effort into converting them to Christianity, or if you don't care about them, ignore them.

I agree there is something comforting in believing in God and an afterlife. It's nice to know that your soul or spirit continues to live on and grow after death, and it's nice to know that there's a good structuring force behind The Universe and The Ultimate Reality. However, I despise the concept of an eternal hell. It's the most insidious form of mind control ever invented by man, and it has done more harm to humanity and the loving nature of mankind than any other concept ever invented. However, I won't argue with anyone that says it comes in second after Communism.

Pastor's Nightmare

Koran 5:14-"From those, too, who call themselves Christians, we did take a Covenant, But they forgot a good part of the Message that was sent them. ...And soon will God show them what it is they have done."

Koran 2:135-"They say: 'Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided to salvation. 'Say thou: 'Nay! I would rather the Religion of Abraham The True, and he joined not gods with God."

Koran 5:51 "Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other."

Pastor's Nightmare

"He who in this oneness of love, loves me in whatever he sees, wherever this man may live, in truth this man lives in me...I am from everlasting the seed of eternal life...in its delusion the world knows me not...all beings have their rest in me...I am the way...he who loves me shall not perish...only by love can men see me, and know me, and come unto me...malignant men hate me...they come not to me, but they go down the path of hell."-Krishna - the Bhagavad Gita (c. 500 B.C.)

Now, if a man worships another deity, thinking, "He is one and I am another," he does not know. He is like an animal to the gods. As many animals serve a man, so does each man serve the gods. Even if one animal is taken away, it causes anguish to the owner; how much more so when many are taken away! Therefore it is not pleasing to the gods that men should know the truth. (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1,4,10)

(1) "I am the goal of life, the LORD and support of all, the inner witness, the abode of all. I am the only refuge, the ONE true friend; I am the beginning, the staying, and the end of creation; I am the womb and the eternal seed. I am heat; I give and withhold the rain. I am immortality and I am death; I am what is and what is not" [Bhagavad Gita 9:18-19]

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelations 1:8)

Krishna says: "Whatever thou doest, whatever thou eatest, whatever thou offerest in sacrifice, etc., commit that to me." This is compared with 1 Corinthians x. 31: "Whether therefore ye eat or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." Also to Colossians x. 17: "Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus."

More evolved. Perhaps. INFINITELY more evolved?