andrewcriddle

If the use of ταρασσω un the NT is a guide, (see the examples you quoted plus Matthew 14:26/Mark 6:50), the word seems to be used in the context of epiphanies of one sort or another. This may indicate that for both Matthew and Ignatius the star is not just an astronomical phenomenon but something more supernatural.

Andrew Criddle

spin

The notion "just an astronomical phenomenon" is an anachronism. The distinction between astrology and astronomy is a mediaeval one. How often do ancient people mention stars when they are not portentous?


spin

DCHindley

When they are considered to exist for the purpose of measuring time. They may also have been thought by many to have an astrological significance, but this cannot be assumed. My understanding is that the ancient Hebrews as a whole did not look upon them as tools for astrological interpretation, but strictly for time keeping purposes. The Babylonians saw them as both time keeping phenomenon as well as entities affecting earthly events. The Greeks followed the Babylonians. The best source for this kind of thing is Otto Neugebauer, who has written several books on ancient astronomy, spanning Babylon, the Hellenic world, Egypt, Judea and Ethiopia (which seemed to draw heavily on Jewish Enochic astronomical books).

DCH

spin

So I guess you wouldn't expect Andrew to find any such examples in the common writings of the time.


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DCHindley

Spin,

If I can find such examples (I have a couple books by Neugebauer which specifically deal with ancient astronomical observation as time measurement), then I am pretty sure Mr. Criddle can.

If you are referring to something else Andrew has said, then I may not be following you. He is correct that ASTRON and TARASSW do not occur together in any of the Greek authors I was able to search at Perseus.org,

As for Andrew's assertion that great significance can be given to the fact that there does not appear to be any other text, pagan or Christian, besides Matthew that connects star and amazement like Ignatius Eph 19, I'd caution that Matthew does NOT have anything corresponding in any way to Ignatius' description of the heavenly phenomenon associated with it.

I'll bring up again Revelation 12. Here we have a "sign" (SHMEION) in the heavens that is described in a splendorous manner similar to that in Ign. Eph. 19.

Ignatius, Ephesians 19:	Revelation 12:
1a And hidden from the prince of this world were	3a And another portent [SHMEION] appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon,
1b the virginity of Mary	Lxx Isaiah 7:14b behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb,
1c and her child-bearing	Lxx Isaiah 7:14c and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel.
1d and likewise also the death of the Lord	5b but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,
1e --three mysteries to be cried aloud--the which were wrought in the silence of God.	Revelation 10:7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God, as he announced to his servants the prophets, should be fulfilled.
2a How then were they made manifest to the ages?
2b A star [ASTRON] shone forth in the heaven above all the stars;	1a And a great portent [SHMEION] appeared in heaven,
2c and its light was unutterable, and its strangeness caused amazement;	1b a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet,
2d and all the rest of the constellations with the sun and moon formed themselves into a chorus about the star; but the star itself far outshone them all;	1c and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
2e and there was perplexity [TARACH] to know whence came this strange appearance which was so unlike them.	See 1a "portent"
3a From that time forward every sorcery and every spell was dissolved, the ignorance of wickedness vanished away,
3b the ancient kingdom was pulled down,	9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world -- he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
3c when God appeared in the likeness of man unto newness of everlasting life;	Lxx Isaiah 7:14a Therefore the Lord [KURIOS, also in the Hebrew] himself shall give you a sign [SHMEION];
3d and that which had been perfected in the counsels of God began to take effect.
3e Thence all things were perturbed, because the abolishing of death was taken in hand.	And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come,

In short, Ign. Eph. 19 has far more in common with Rev. 12 than it does with Mat. 2. While Ignatius otherwise does not directly quote Revelation (except the longer Greek version of Smyrneans, which we can dispose of for this discussion), it does seem he was in touch with a cosmic myth that is very similar to that found in Rev 12.

MJers are always keen to find this overarching Christ myth, well here it is, and they have every legitimate right to press on in this direction.

I interjected into your tit for tat exchange because you guys are getting too hung up on semantics and missing the point.

DCH