discordant

This is from Blue Letter Bible:

(Isaiah 53:11) ἀπὸ τοῦ πόνου τῆς ψυχῆς αὐτοῦ δεῖξαι αὐτῷ φῶς καὶ πλάσαι τῇ συνέσει δικαιῶσαι δίκαιον εὖ δουλεύοντα πολλοῖς καὶ τὰς ἁμαρτίας αὐτῶν αὐτὸς ἀνοίσει

And this is from Early Church Texts:

(1 Clement 16:12) καὶ κύριος βούλεται ἀφελεῖν ἀπὸ τοῦ πόνου τῆς ψυχῆς αὐτοῦ, δεῖξαι αὐτῷ φῶς καὶ πλάσαι τῇ συνέσει, δικαιῶσαι δίκαιον εὖ δουλεύοντα πολλοῖς. καὶ τὰς ἁμαρτίας αὐτῶν αὐτὸς ἀνοίσει.

They seem to agree word-for-word.

Thanks.

ApostateAbe

That is a very good catch, and you are right. I am so glad you gave me the lead to EarlyChurchTexts.com.

ApostateAbe

The original Greek really is exactly the same, like it is all an exact quote, at least in all of the cases that I can find, and that really destroys my argument.

Vivisector

Dog-On, for what it's worth, I've always considered it virtually undeniable that some details presented (presumably) as factual were based more-or-less directly on the HB. For example, casting lots for clothing, gall and vinegar, many more. Others seem not to fit quite as well at a first glance and suggest a more forced interpretation (e.g., virgin birth). Still others leave me with one of those "WTF" reactions, such as this one from Barnabas:

"For it says, 'And Abraham circumcised from his household eighteen men and three hundred.' What then was the knowledge that was given to him? Notice that he first mentions the eighteen, and after a pause the three hundred. The eighteen is I (=ten) and H (=8) -- you have Jesus -- and because the cross was destined to have grace in the T he says "and three hundred." So he indicates Jesus in the two letters and the cross in the other. "

If this was the type of exegesis that created Jesus from whole cloth, then I might have to reconsider my skepticism regarding the whole miracle business!

Cheers,

V.

dog-on

If people actually lived in a vacuum, I suppose you would be correct.

JoeWallack

JW:
For those who have not been following at home, AA's main complaint for these unholy Boards is that the level of scholarship is an embarrassment to Skepticism. In an irony that I think the author of "Mark" would have really appreciated, AA's Thread here is demonstrating exactly that:



Joseph

ErrancyWiki

mountainman

Hi Vivisector,

To be precise they were based on the Greek LXX, not the Hebrew version. The evidence is that the authors and editors of the new testament worked in the Greek from the beginning.

It may be interesting to note the appearance of the 318 as the legendary number of attendees (who were not banished) at the Council of Nicaea. The authority appealed to by many of christians from Nicaea until the time of Cyril of Alexandria, was that of the "Three Hundred and Eighteen Fathers of Nicaea". The references to Eusebius's earlier "Church Fathers" commence with Cyril.

Jesus was data-mined in Greek from the Greek LXX. All the early Christians found "Jesus" in the Greek LXX, not in the culture that surrounded them. Jesus seems constructed on the model of Joshua, since Jesus and Joshua share the same "nomina sacra" "J_S". The whole thing is a wrought, designed to use the asserted antiquity of the LXX and HB, as an appeal to antiquity.

As far as I am concerned, the best explanation of the evidence is that Jesus was created from whole cloth by the culture of the 4th century.

Best wishes,


Pete

mountainman

Hi ApostateAbe,

I think you need to figure this through again. It's just one of the options. Another option is that Jesus has been purposefully fabricated. The most minimalistic Jesus is the common and fictional one.

The life and death of Jesus are most likely very mythical. We cannot assume he lived or died, and we certainly cannot presume the stories found in the new testament (even with Eusebius's authoritative support) represent historical accounts of the 1st century. The better question must therefore be in which century does Jesus appear in the literary and archaeological evidence of antiquity in an unambiguous manner. I leave you to answer that question.

Best wishes,


Pete

jgoodguy

FWIW, whole cloth is not needed. Just gather up traditions, popular writings, add material and edit.

Toto

I think we should congratulate Abe for recognizing reality.