Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 01-22-2013, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

no, no one has ever doubted Philonic authorship.

More bullshit.

stephan huller · 01-22-2013, 09:55 AM

So is there a coherent argument for why the text might be written by 'another Philo' beyond you don't like what the text says (again 'you don't like text for some reason I can't figure out anyway other than obsessive compulsive disorder)?

mountainman · 01-22-2013, 10:02 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo%2..._Contemplativa

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

there are great dissimilarities between the fundamental conceptions of the author of the "De Vita Contemplativa" and those of Philo.

The latter looks upon Greek culture and philosophy as allies, the former is hostile to Greek philosophy (see Siegfried in "Protestantische Kirchenzeitung," 1896, No.42).

He repudiates a science that numbered among Its followers the sacred baud of the Pythagoreans, inspired men like Parmenides, Empedocles, Zeno, Cleanthes, Heraclitus, and Plato, whom Philo prized ("Quod Omnis Probus," i., ii.; "Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit," 43; "De Providentia," ii. 42, 48, etc.).

He considers the symposium a detestable, common drinking-bout. This can not be explained as a Stoic diatribe; for in this case Philo would not have repeated it.

And Philo would have been the last to interpret the Platonic Eros in the vulgar way in which it is explained in the "De Vita Contemplativa," 7 (ii. 480), as he repeatedly uses the myth of double man allegorically in his interpretation of Scripture ("De Opificio Mundi," 24; "De Allegoriis Legum," ii. 24).

It must furthermore be remembered that Philo in none of his other works mentions these colonies of allegorizing ascetics, in which he would have been highly interested had he known of them.

But pupils of Philo may subsequently have founded near Alexandria similar colonies that endeavored to realize his ideal of a pure life triumphing over the senses and passions; and they might also have been responsible for the one-sided development of certain of the master's principles.

While Philo desired to renounce the lusts of this world, he held fast to the scientific culture of Hellenism, which the author of this book denounces.

Although Philo liked to withdraw from the world in order to give himself up entirely to contemplation, and bitterly regretted the lack of such repose ("De Specialibus Legibus," 1 [ii. 299]), he did not abandon the work that was required of him by the welfare of his people

Toto · 01-22-2013, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Where is this to found other than in one of your fantasies?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philo's De Legatione ad Gaium
(81) And yet why, O Gaius! did you think yourself in need of spurious honours, such as the temples and statues of the beings above-mentioned are often filled with? You ought rather to have imitated their virtues. Hercules purified both the earth and the sea, performing labours of the greatest possible importance and of the highest benefit to all mankind, in order to eradicate all that was mischievous and calculated to injure the nature of each of the elements.
...

(90) But I suppose you imitated Hercules in your unwearied labours and your incessant displays of valour and virtue;

Read this in context. Philo earlier described the bizarre behavior of the Roman emperor:

For he began at first to liken himself to those beings who are called demigods, such as Bacchus, and Hercules, and the twins of Lacedaemon; turning into utter ridicule Trophonius, and Amphiaraus, and Amphilochus, and others of the same kind, with all their oracles and secret ceremonies, in comparison of his own power. (79) In the next place, like an actor in a theatre, he was continually wearing different dresses at different times, taking at one time a lion's skin and a club, both gilded over; being then dressed in the character of Hercules; at another time he would wear a felt hat upon his head, when he was disguised in imitation of the Spartan twins, Castor and Pollux; sometimes he also adorned himself with ivy, and a thyrsus, and skins of fawns, so as to appear in the guise of Bacchus

So it isn't that Philo believed that Hercules was a demi-god - he was appealing to the Gaius to act like the demi-god he pretended to be.

Quote:

...
"therapeutai".

THERAPEUTAE

One is a Latin form, one is a Greek form of the plural.

Quote:

...

I notice that while Stephan has been quick to condemn those of us uneducated bumpkins, he and his pal Toto, have steadfastly avoided commenting on tanya's posts citing two ancient Greek authors, who lived hundreds of years before Philo, and reference therapeutae, in harmony with the OP.

:huh:

Do you seriously claim that all theraputs are the same? Are all priests the same whatever god/goddess or other creature they attend to?

If that is your claim, we will just let the matter rest until you provide some proof.

Toto · 01-22-2013, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo%2..._Contemplativa

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

there are great dissimilarities between the fundamental conceptions of the author of the "De Vita Contemplativa" and those of Philo.

The latter looks upon Greek culture and philosophy as allies, the former is hostile to Greek philosophy (see Siegfried in "Protestantische Kirchenzeitung," 1896, No.42).

He repudiates a science that numbered among Its followers the sacred baud of the Pythagoreans, inspired men like Parmenides, Empedocles, Zeno, Cleanthes, Heraclitus, and Plato, whom Philo prized ("Quod Omnis Probus," i., ii.; "Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit," 43; "De Providentia," ii. 42, 48, etc.).

He considers the symposium a detestable, common drinking-bout. This can not be explained as a Stoic diatribe; for in this case Philo would not have repeated it.

And Philo would have been the last to interpret the Platonic Eros in the vulgar way in which it is explained in the "De Vita Contemplativa," 7 (ii. 480), as he repeatedly uses the myth of double man allegorically in his interpretation of Scripture ("De Opificio Mundi," 24; "De Allegoriis Legum," ii. 24).

It must furthermore be remembered that Philo in none of his other works mentions these colonies of allegorizing ascetics, in which he would have been highly interested had he known of them.

But pupils of Philo may subsequently have founded near Alexandria similar colonies that endeavored to realize his ideal of a pure life triumphing over the senses and passions; and they might also have been responsible for the one-sided development of certain of the master's principles.

While Philo desired to renounce the lusts of this world, he held fast to the scientific culture of Hellenism, which the author of this book denounces.

Although Philo liked to withdraw from the world in order to give himself up entirely to contemplation, and bitterly regretted the lack of such repose ("De Specialibus Legibus," 1 [ii. 299]), he did not abandon the work that was required of him by the welfare of his people

These factors would all seem to argue that the Therapeuts described in "De Vita Contemplativa" are Jewish and not pagan, since this putative separate author is hostile to Hellenism.

Iskander · 01-22-2013, 10:34 AM

The philonian therapeutae may have never existed at all. They may very well be only the invention of a writer who fabricated a story for political reasons.

Quote:

This work (written c. 40 CE) would then have had an immediate political relevance, in that Philo was seeking to prove the excellent virtue of the Jews, who were at that time in fear of their lives. One should not, after all, demand the deaths of those who are virtuous.

DeVita Contemplativa is designed to show that the pinnacle of human existence—manifested in a truly philosophical, contemplative, good life— was experienced by a group of Jews living outside Alexandria. Therefore, everything about the group is good.

We only have the writings of Philo and gullible excitable posters.

Quote:

We have no documents from the group, and there appears to be no other author from antiquity who describes them. Philo’s De Vita Contemplativa drives all historical assessments of what the group was like.
Conclusions
In approaching a text like De Vita Contemplativa, we can delve into points of dissonance between the rhetorical construction and historical reality

http://www.academia.edu/177069/Spiri...en_Therapeutae

mountainman · 01-22-2013, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo%2..._Contemplativa

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

there are great dissimilarities between the fundamental conceptions of the author of the "De Vita Contemplativa" and those of Philo.

The latter looks upon Greek culture and philosophy as allies, the former is hostile to Greek philosophy (see Siegfried in "Protestantische Kirchenzeitung," 1896, No.42).

He repudiates a science that numbered among Its followers the sacred baud of the Pythagoreans, inspired men like Parmenides, Empedocles, Zeno, Cleanthes, Heraclitus, and Plato, whom Philo prized ("Quod Omnis Probus," i., ii.; "Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit," 43; "De Providentia," ii. 42, 48, etc.).

He considers the symposium a detestable, common drinking-bout. This can not be explained as a Stoic diatribe; for in this case Philo would not have repeated it.

And Philo would have been the last to interpret the Platonic Eros in the vulgar way in which it is explained in the "De Vita Contemplativa," 7 (ii. 480), as he repeatedly uses the myth of double man allegorically in his interpretation of Scripture ("De Opificio Mundi," 24; "De Allegoriis Legum," ii. 24).

It must furthermore be remembered that Philo in none of his other works mentions these colonies of allegorizing ascetics, in which he would have been highly interested had he known of them.

But pupils of Philo may subsequently have founded near Alexandria similar colonies that endeavored to realize his ideal of a pure life triumphing over the senses and passions; and they might also have been responsible for the one-sided development of certain of the master's principles.

While Philo desired to renounce the lusts of this world, he held fast to the scientific culture of Hellenism, which the author of this book denounces.

Although Philo liked to withdraw from the world in order to give himself up entirely to contemplation, and bitterly regretted the lack of such repose ("De Specialibus Legibus," 1 [ii. 299]), he did not abandon the work that was required of him by the welfare of his people

These factors would all seem to argue that the Therapeuts described in "De Vita Contemplativa" are Jewish and not pagan, since this putative separate author is hostile to Hellenism.

The Early Christians were also hostile to Hellenism.

And the Christian Eusebius used the text of VC" to argue that these therapeutae were Christians.

These factors, coupled with the fact that the Early Church EXPRESSLY preserved "VC" may suggest that the text of "VC" was part of a later Christian fabrication.

mountainman · 01-22-2013, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

The philonian therapeutae may have never existed at all. They may very well be only the invention of a writer who fabricated a story for political reasons.

Quote:

This work (written c. 40 CE) would then have had an immediate political relevance, in that Philo was seeking to prove the excellent virtue of the Jews, who were at that time in fear of their lives. One should not, after all, demand the deaths of those who are virtuous.

DeVita Contemplativa is designed to show that the pinnacle of human existence—manifested in a truly philosophical, contemplative, good life— was experienced by a group of Jews living outside Alexandria. Therefore, everything about the group is good.

We only have the writings of Philo and gullible excitable posters.

Quote:

We have no documents from the group, and there appears to be no other author from antiquity who describes them. Philo’s De Vita Contemplativa drives all historical assessments of what the group was like.
Conclusions
In approaching a text like De Vita Contemplativa, we can delve into points of dissonance between the rhetorical construction and historical reality

http://www.academia.edu/177069/Spiri...en_Therapeutae

Thanks very much for your comments and quotes Iskander.

It may be appropriate to mention that the 1st century sage, healer and author of books Apollonius of Tyana, against whom Eusebius wrote a huge treatise, was at one time one of the pagan therapeutae of Asclepius.

stephan huller · 01-22-2013, 10:59 AM

so the right answer is either they didn't exist or they are part of the "pagan therapeutai" franchise. whatever the case the plain meaning of Philo's text has to be discounted unless he were agreeing with what we want to be true

tanya · 01-22-2013, 11:15 AM

What a fantastic thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

....trained at the sorbonne....

maybe not.... how about taught there, instead....?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

So it isn't that Philo believed that Hercules was a demi-god - he was appealing to the Gaius to act like the demi-god he pretended to be.

You confound my writings with those of Stephan.. I never claimed that Philo BELIEVED that Hercules was a demi-god. Please read my rejoinder, again, for the first time.

I wrote, correctly in my opinion, that Philo WROTE praise of Hercules. Read Philo's text again. Philo is writing to the Emperor, a guy who DOES believe that Hercules was a demigod. I have no idea, and in my opinion, neither do you, what Philo, himself, actually believed. As I had replied a few days ago, in my opinion, Philo was a devout Jew, who believed in monotheism, strictly. And, as noted earlier, several times now, Philo is not the subject of this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Do you seriously claim that all theraputs are the same?

I have no idea whether all Therapeutae followed identical precepts, or if they were all dissimilar, or if some groups followed Isis, others Aescapulis, while others saw Hippocrates, himself, as the great guru. I only believe, without knowledge, that in the ancient Greek empire, founded by Alexander, taken over by the Romans, a couple hundred years later, there were numerous colonies of Therapeutae, scattered throughout the empire, and their existence has been noted by several authors of distinction, writing CENTURIES before Philo.

Did you read what I wrote?

I offered TWO ancient Greek authors, who describe Therapeutae, and you have thus far neglected to comment on their writings.

Philo is a complete distraction from the OP, which has nothing to do with heterogenity, versus homogeneity of the people living in the suburbs of Alexandria, and everything to do with the ancient Greek Therapeutae, SOME OF WHOM, lived proximate to Athens, some proximate to Delphi, some proximate to Alexandria, some proximate to Pergamum in Turkey (city of Galen's birth).

Please stop misrepresenting what I have written. Quote me, honestly, or refute me with a reference of your own, but stop repudiating something which I have not communicated. It is most unattractive.

:constern01:

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01-22-2013, 09:55 AM	#292
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	So is there a coherent argument for why the text might be written by 'another Philo' beyond you don't like what the text says (again 'you don't like text for some reason I can't figure out anyway other than obsessive compulsive disorder)?

01-22-2013, 10:59 AM	#299
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	so the right answer is either they didn't exist or they are part of the "pagan therapeutai" franchise. whatever the case the plain meaning of Philo's text has to be discounted unless he were agreeing with what we want to be true

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