Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 05-14-2012, 01:03 PM

Quote:

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

This is very interesting. The author points to 'words which were spoken before' about the corruptors of the agape who would come in the time of the apostles. This is interesting. Will have to think about what this references.

sotto voce · 05-14-2012, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Why is Moses exempt from the Devil if Jesus hasn't appeared yet to save him? Remember that Jesus goes under the earth to redeem the Patriarchs. Not Moses. Why? Because he has been already saved through the rite which Jesus established to save Christians

Rite? Is this a Jesuit seminary, or something?

stephan huller · 05-14-2012, 01:07 PM

The passage from the Book of Enoch is referenced as a 'prophesy' but can this be what is meant in v 17? I don't know. Seems a stretch. But what does the author have in mind?

stephan huller · 05-14-2012, 01:08 PM

Perhaps I read the material wrong. Maybe Jude is citing something the apostles said.

sotto voce · 05-14-2012, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

This is very interesting.

Even more interesting in a modern version presented as continuous text. I'm sure we agree. It's a hot time ahead for Jesuits, eh.

stephan huller · 05-14-2012, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Ὑμεῖς δέ, ἀγαπητοί, μνήσθητε τῶν ῥημάτων τῶν προειρημένων ὑπὸ τῶν ἀποστόλων τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

Does ὑπὸ here mean something said 'by' the apostles or 'of' the apostles?

stephan huller · 05-14-2012, 01:12 PM

The answer is I think "by the apostles" so the context is a statement in the apostolic writings.

sotto voce · 05-14-2012, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Perhaps I read the material wrong. Maybe Jude is citing something the apostles said.

Or something his bro Jesus said. Not that it mattered, Michael was the protecting angel of Israel in popular culture, and people all over the diaspora would have known it. The issue is not using any authority but that of Jesus to rebuke Satan/demons, which is otherwise attested in OT and NT.

sotto voce · 05-14-2012, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Ὑμεῖς δέ, ἀγαπητοί, μνήσθητε τῶν ῥημάτων τῶν προειρημένων ὑπὸ τῶν ἀποστόλων τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

Does ὑπὸ here mean something said 'by' the apostles or 'of' the apostles?

It could hardly be that the apostles were mockers. Not that this is a relevant part of the letter.

stephan huller · 05-14-2012, 01:18 PM

This language is interestingly imitated by 2 Peter so we likely have one forger at work composition two works attributed to apostolic figures.

This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

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05-14-2012, 01:07 PM	#93
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The passage from the Book of Enoch is referenced as a 'prophesy' but can this be what is meant in v 17? I don't know. Seems a stretch. But what does the author have in mind?

05-14-2012, 01:08 PM	#94
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Perhaps I read the material wrong. Maybe Jude is citing something the apostles said.

05-14-2012, 01:12 PM	#97
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The answer is I think "by the apostles" so the context is a statement in the apostolic writings.

05-14-2012, 01:18 PM	#100
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	This language is interestingly imitated by 2 Peter so we likely have one forger at work composition two works attributed to apostolic figures. This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

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