Selsaral

This is entirely my point though, and you still aren't looking at the big picture I am trying to draw your attention to.

Everyone works with the tradition they were taught, and everyone is sure they are right, and that everyone else is wrong. But none of you can demonstrate even one tiny piece of it. People who believe in witchcraft think the less similar your beliefs are to monotheism the more credible they are. Polytheists think the more gods you believe in the more credible your beliefs are. And of course Christians think that the more similar your religion is to Christianity the more credible it is (big shocker there).

You operate exactly like a Hindu or one of the thousands of obscure animist/witchcraft type religions out there. Your beliefs are just as much based on tradition and childhood indoctrination as theirs are. But you don't seem to think that you fall prey to those same cultural forces, or that your beliefs could be entirely based upon nothing supernatural but instead ordinary tradition.

There's a gigantic precedent when we look at other cultures and the history of humanity that it is human nature to honestly believe in false supernatural concepts due to ordinary superstitious behavior and cultural indoctrination. But you seem to be positive that these factors could never apply to you. These things are extremely hard to see in ourselves, they formed the foundation of our minds long before we were old enough to ponder them.

I am not demanding that you immediately conclude that your beliefs are the result of ordinary human superstitious thought processes, but I am suggesting that when you look at the big picture of the human condition you should at least find many things about your own beliefs suspicious, and find many similarities between the wrong superstitious beliefs of other humans and your own supernatural beliefs. For example, Christianity is just as culturally and geographically dependent as all the other religions out there. Just like ordinary myths, Christianity couldn't spread to North America until humans constructed boats. Just like ordinary myths, Christianity has many similarities to related religious traditions.

And I still think it's a bit arrogant to think 'I'm not like those other humans who stupidly believe in false supernatural concepts merely because of tradition and cultural indoctrination'. You're a human just like the rest of us.

ksen

I am claiming just that.

So? Let's say that 60% of christians were raised in christian homes and in a "christian" society. That means 40% weren't. Which would imply that being raised in a christian home or society isn't necessary.

No one is born a christian. At some point a decision must be made.

And?

How many atheists were raised in christian homes and taught christianity from their childhood? Were those people who became atheists later in life just smarter than those who stayed with christianity?

Selsaral

It's way more than 60%. How many Native Americans were Christian before Europeans built boats and sailed here? 0%.

No one is claiming that people are 'born' Christian. But they are culturally indoctrinated in their own religion just like everyone else. It happens in the ages 1-12.

I'd like to try another angle. Can you demonstrate any logistical differences between Christianity and say Islam? (A difference other than 'Islam doesn't have God's son killing himself for us'). They both spread through ordinary cultural contact, and NEVER otherwise. They are both limited entirely by how far humans can travel. (What, God can't walk any faster than humans?) They both rose out of an environment of similar religious traditions.


No, in fact they probably were able to see that their religion was just as much a cultural tradition as Islam or Hinduism. But everyone is different. Some people carefully examine their beliefs, and some don't. Some are emotionally drawn to religion, and some aren't. Some get more powerful cultural reinforcement of their beliefs than others. And some just don't care.

ksen

And I think I am looking at the big picture and that the atheists are not seeing it. :huh:

Do you think that only atheists have the big picture in mind?

What kind of demonstration do you expect from christians? Should we call fire down from heaven like Elijah? Should we be able to call a dove to rest on our shoulder while a voice from heaven booms out that we are correct and that everybody else better listen? I'm not sure what kind of demonstration you have in mind.

I don't dispute any of that.

Are you under the impression that the atheist is not a product of his society? If you were raised in a dominantly religious society like say, Saudi Arabia, do you think you'd be an atheist today?

If so than it seems I'm not the only one that doesn't seem to think I could fall prey to cultural forces.

Why do you think humanity instinctually believes in the supernatural?

Have I said that? I think I said in my testimony further up the thread that I have always suspected God exists.

I can see that. And I agree that things are hardest to see when they are in ourselves. That goes for everybody.

It's kind of funny because I have considered the similarities between what you term superstitious beliefs of others and my own. It has just reinforced my beliefs because it makes sense to me that there should be some similarities. Humanity shares a common history so it doesn't surprise me that there are similarities since if you go far back enough in history we all worshipped the same God but because of the effect of sin.

Read The Two Babylons by Hislop. While that book is seeking to tear down the Catholic church the author does make the case that there are similarities because the devil, or whatever you want to call it, has kept putting out counterfiets to the true religion.

I agree. That would be arrogant. I hope you also see that it is just as arrogant to think your own beliefs have not been shaped by tradition and cultural indoctrination.

Johnny Skeptic

The point is, if a God exists, he is able to do more than he has to encourage people to believe that he exists, and to know what he wants them to do with their lives. That is sufficient grounds for people to reject him.

If Jesus rose from the dead, and appeared to hundreds of people after he rose from the dead, did at least one person become a Christian partly because of his post-Resurrection appearances? If so, then he should have appeared to more people. Did at least one person become one of Jesus followers partly because they saw him perform miracles? If so, Jesus should have performed more miracles.

Selsaral

No, actually I think only anthropologists have the big picture in mind. That was something of a joke, but that anthropological information puts humanity in such a powerful perspective. It shows the endless similarities between Christianity and all the other religions out there (not theologically, but logistically and functionally).

Something, anything. For example, if when Europeans arrived in North America the Native Americans were already Christian because God had gotten him sacrificed here. Or if Christianity had rose out of an entirely different area (showing it wasn't just another ordinary cultural development).

But you still have no problem judging the truth of religions based on how similar they are to the New Testament? You realize that's what all humans do, even the ones you believe are wrong, but that doesn't make you even slightly suspicious?

Not at all. I am sure I'd be a muslim if I were raised in Saudi Arabia. And so would you. The message of your God is completely powerless in the face of ordinary cultural indoctrination and tradition.

The entire body of anthropological and psychological science. Oh, and the entire sum of human history.


People gain their beliefs long before they are able to properly examine them. When you are six years old, you are innately gullible and instinctively absorb the beliefs of your culture, but we aren't mature enough to begin examining those beliefs until we are at least 14 (but of course it varies from person to person).

You are aware that there are thousands of religions out there that have nothing at all to do with God, right? And that the further you go from the Middle East (the crossroads of the continents where cultures freely exchanged ideas), the less similar the religious beliefs are to monotheism, right? People on islands in the South Pacific believe in menstrual blood magic. People in SubSaharan Africa have a huge range of witchcraft type beliefs. And that's just the start. If God didn't exist and people invented the concept for cultural and psychological reasons, the distribution and development of all religions would look exactly like they look now.

Please read some anthropology. You are not armed with the data you need to put this cultural information into perspective.


I am not the one denying it, but you seem to be. You seem to be saying that you believe in Christianity because it's true, not because of tradition or cultural factors. But everyone claims that. I don't claim that about my atheism. I was raised in a Christian society by a Christian family (though not forcefed it), and I am one of the tiny minority who didn't carry those beliefs into adulthood.

I am positive my anthropology education was important in breaking those beliefs.

ksen

And what does that prove?

All christians?

I'm not sure what you're asking me to do. Can you elaborate a bit further?

If you're simply asking about how the two faiths are communicated and spread than I don't know what to tell you. I mean in Matthew Jesus tells the apostles to go and make disciples. In the beginning of Acts before rising into heaven Jesus tells the disciples that they would be his witnesses throughout the earth. The bible never says anything about the gospel being sent throughout the world supernaturally or in any other way but by men.

Do they see that their atheism is just as much a cultural tradition as Islam or Hinduism? If you were born in Saudi Arabia do you think you'd still be an atheist?

Selsaral

I'm glad you asked, because this is a powerful piece of evidence that a lot of people don't seem to understand.

This doesn't just look at Christianity. It looks at all religious concepts, from menstrual blood magic to animal spirits to leprechauns to Zeus. These supernatural concepts (particularly an omnipotent God) aren't geographically limited. God doesn't need to wait for roads to be constructed before he influences people. God doesn't need a boat to cross the Atlantic ocean.

But Christianity does. In fact, ALL religions do. Allah doesn't need airplanes to spread his message. And until airplanes were invented Islam spread only where people could walk, run, ride, or sail. And the exact moment airplanes are invented, suddenly Islam (and Christianity, and all the rest) could suddenly spread. Same with boats, and roads, and all the rest.

This shows us that there is no God out there communicating with us, prompting or desiring belief. The pattern of how religions spread (ALL religions) is EXACTLY what we'd expect to see if they were ALL myths.

Again, this doesn't have to force you to convert immediately, but it should be at least marginally suspicious.

I have an analogy I use to communicate this idea. I use the analogy because people have a really hard time putting their own beliefs into perspective.

Say I claim I have magical flying powers like Superman. A pretty fantastic claim. There'd be nothing unreasonable about you asking (out of normal curiosity if not hardened skepticism) for me to demonstrate. Say you asked me to demonstrate and I said 'well, I can only use my fantastical magical flying powers when I've bought an airplane ticket and boarded an airplane'. Would that reply have cast doubt on my initial claim?

This is exactly what's happening with all of these supernatural claims. People are claiming gods with magical powers exist, and then showing us ordinary human activity with nothing magical going on.

The vast majority. I acknowledge the phenomena of adult religious conversion. Plenty of Christians convert to Scientology for example.

Well Christianity, like all religious beliefs, makes grandiose claims about magical beings with magical powers. But when we examine them, we see no magic. Just ordinary people doing ordinary human things. If gods and spirits and magic were invented by humans for cultural and psychological reasons, this is EXACTLY what we'd expect to see.

Myths don't spread supernaturally either. Your grandiose magical omnipotent God operates EXACTLY like a myth, through ordinary cultural contact and human activity.

This doesn't have to force you to convert immediately, but it should make you at least slightly suspicious.

Thanks for asking this good question. I am certain I'd be a muslim if I were raised in Saudi Arabia, just as I am certain you would be. The message of your real, omnipotent God appears entirely powerless in the face of ordinary cultural indoctrination and tradition.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to ksen: Why do you suppose that God has more success getting people to accept him in the U.S. than in Syria?

ksen

I don't think any Christian has ever claimed that God needs those things in order to influence people. :huh:

Ok. I'm not sure what your are trying to say other than because God apparently uses human means to spread his message then he doesn't really exist. That seems to be quite a leap in thinking to me.

It's also what we'd expect since that is the way the bible says the gospel is to be transmitted, by people.

It doesn't cause me to be even slightly suspicious. It looks like straw grasping to me.

Yeah, just like the bible says it will. Go figure. :huh:

I guess you just ignore the Christian converts popping up in places like Iran, Iraq, and the other Muslim nations?