Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Horatio Parker · 03-09-2012, 10:17 AM

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Originally Posted by maryhelena

It's probably just me - but I do have trouble going the route of attributing negative ulterior motives to either Josephus or the gospel writers. People do sincerely belief certain stuff and what they do, because of that stuff, to be acceptable within that context. Our context is different today. We want the plain 'truth' without any imaginative dressing.

The judgement of ulterior motive is a modern projection, I suspect. We don't have a class of people who consider power their birthright. They did these things differently then. What might strike us as megalomania could be for them simply good management, and sincere.

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More likely that politics would turn on the church than the church deciding to go for 'divorce'...

Or adopt it's methods eg North Korea.

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Indeed, once the easy answers are seen to be inadequate - time for some serious soul searching. Perhaps an identity crisis or two - and hopefully some real intellectual advancement.

These are indeed interesting times.

la70119 · 03-09-2012, 05:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Bernard Muller

Where does 18 come from for Tacitus? Under Pilate would be 26-36?

Tacitus just says during the term of Pontius Pilate but no dates are given.

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For Josephus, in the TF (that I totally reject), that's still would be 26-36

WHAT!!! We all know the TF is a damn fool forgery, probably by Eusebius. I was going by the assumption that it wasn't for argument's sake. But the TF is shoehorned in between the reservoir incident and the two incidents in Rome that resulted in the expulsion of the Jews by Tiberius in 19 CE (Suetonius Tiberius 36) or by the Senate in 22-23 CE (Tacitus Annals 2.85.4). Yet we are expected to believe that it occured after 26 or even 30 CE!!!

What about the previous governor, Valerius Gratus? He comes in late 14 or early 15 CE, deposes Ananus the High Priest and appoints three high priests in a row, each ruling for only about a year, and finally Josephus Caiaphas in 18 CE. And then we are to expect him to do nothing for eight years!

There are even coins reliably Pilatian that date to 20 CE.

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Suetonius (even if that Chrestus is Jesus, a very long shot!) does not say HJ died then.

No, but he does say 'Chrestus' was still alive and kicking and instigating the Jews in Rome to riot then. And Christian apologists WILL INSIST that this 'Chrestus' IS their Jesus, saying that if Suetonius meant someone else named 'Chrestus', then he would have qualified the name with 'a certain'. Besides, it dovetails nicely with the writer of Irenaeus' Against Heresies 2.22 and Proof of Apostolic Preaching 74 that Jesus suffered in his fiftieth year or so under Claudius Caesar.

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One version of Acts of Pilate put Jesus' crucifixion in 29CE

I am referring to the Acta pilati that Christians denounced as a government forgery because it says Jesus was crucified in the SEVENTH year of Tiberius Caesar.

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I do not know from where Huller get his 36 for the so-called Markan tradition.

Well I had his site (not his blog) bookmarked 'til my computer crashed, and now I can't find it. Well, here's another link: http://www.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=18

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Originally Posted by Jesus Police

Historical Data

The best way to date the death of Christ is to look for the key players in his death drama, about whom there is considerable information, and to establish the context surrounding Jesus’ death. We begin by acknowledging that Jesus’ death followed the death of John the Baptist, and occurred while Caiaphas was High Priest and while Pilate was Prefect. We have reason to believe that John the Baptist met his gruesome death in 35 A.D. [1], Caiaphas was deposed by Lucius Vitellius, the legate of Syria, in 36 A.D. and Pilate was recalled to Rome at the end of 36 A.D [2]. Ipso facto, Jesus must have been crucified in the year 36 A.D. Having been born in 6 B.C. and having died in 36 A.D. means that Jesus was in his 40s when he died, probably 42 years old.

[1] Schonfield, The Jesus Party, 1974, p.51
[2] Josephus, Antiquities, XVIII, 90, vol ix. P.65

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MJ, of course, came of age (about 30) right around when John the Baptist started his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, or 28-29 CE, according to gLuke. He gets crucified one year later, 29-30 CE.

In John, the Jews say to him on the first Passover the following (rough paraphrase): "46 years this temple has been under construction and is still being built and you intend to rebuild it in three days if it gets torn down?" The Herodian temple started construction in 20-19 CE, so 46 minus 19, then add 1 (for no zero year) yields 28 CE. two Passovers later and it's 30 CE and MJ is crucified.

if we consider Tiberius was co-emperor a bit more than 2 years before Augustus' death, we could get 27 for gLuke.
And if we take 20, instead of 19, then we get 27 for gJohn.

27 may be possible but not likely. The date "15th year" is from gLuke and there is internal evidence that the writer of gLuke relied on Josephus. And Josephus dates Tiberius' reign from Augustus' death (Antiquities XVIII.32-33).The eighteenth year of Herod's reign, when he began the reconstruction of the Jewish Temple, was 20 - 19 CE. One would think it was late 20 to late 19 CE. The big question is, what month did Herod the Great assume power in 37 BCE? Nobody knows. :huh:

mountainman · 03-09-2012, 08:23 PM

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Originally Posted by maryhelena

It is about why the JC story is the way it is. What was the 'salvation' element perceived by both Josephus and the gospel writers within the time frame of Hasmonean/Herodian history?

Salvation was delivered by the Roman Emperor.

Everyone knew that.

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It's the *why* of it all that we need to find answers for - not throw around charges of 'lying'.

It would be very nice (only for historical purposes of course) to find out *when* the gospel writers wrote. Josephus has an identity in space and time. The gospel writers are floating around one of the early centuries of the common era, and OMFG in the gnostic literature they use "a bright cloud" to do so.

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The purpose of a salvation reconstruction of history is not lying.

Why did Eusebius compare Constantine with Josephus's 2nd favorite man Moses?

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It is about writers endeavoring to articulate some meaning, some relevance, they found within a specific historical context.

Great relevance was often found retrospectively, centuries after a specific historical context. Eusebius for example found great relevance in Josephus. If you put Josephus in the dock you better expect to put others there as well.

maryhelena · 03-09-2012, 08:55 PM

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Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

It is about why the JC story is the way it is. What was the 'salvation' element perceived by both Josephus and the gospel writers within the time frame of Hasmonean/Herodian history?

Salvation was delivered by the Roman Emperor.

Everyone knew that.

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It's the *why* of it all that we need to find answers for - not throw around charges of 'lying'.

It would be very nice (only for historical purposes of course) to find out *when* the gospel writers wrote. Josephus has an identity in space and time. The gospel writers are floating around one of the early centuries of the common era, and OMFG in the gnostic literature they use "a bright cloud" to do so.

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The purpose of a salvation reconstruction of history is not lying.

Why did Eusebius compare Constantine with Josephus's 2nd favorite man Moses?

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It is about writers endeavoring to articulate some meaning, some relevance, they found within a specific historical context.

Great relevance was often found retrospectively, centuries after a specific historical context. Eusebius for example found great relevance in Josephus. If you put Josephus in the dock you better expect to put others there as well.

I'll leave that to others - I'm after Josephus and won't be side-tracked.....

mountainman · 03-09-2012, 10:25 PM

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Originally Posted by maryhelena

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Originally Posted by mountainman

Great relevance was often found retrospectively, centuries after a specific historical context. Eusebius for example found great relevance in Josephus. If you put Josephus in the dock you better expect to put others there as well.

I'll leave that to others - I'm after Josephus and won't be side-tracked.....

I know you are after Josephus. The parallels you have outlined are reasonable, but I have not yet seen you establish any link between Josephus and the gospel authors. And I cant think of any except for the "TF". That does not mean there isn't any. Someone suggested whoever wrote the "TF" knew Matthew ....

maryhelena · 03-09-2012, 10:39 PM

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Originally Posted by mountainman

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Originally Posted by maryhelena

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Originally Posted by mountainman

Great relevance was often found retrospectively, centuries after a specific historical context. Eusebius for example found great relevance in Josephus. If you put Josephus in the dock you better expect to put others there as well.

I'll leave that to others - I'm after Josephus and won't be side-tracked.....

I know you are after Josephus. The parallels you have outlined are reasonable, but I have not yet seen you establish any link between Josephus and the gospel authors. And I cant think of any except for the "TF". That does not mean there isn't any. Someone suggested whoever wrote the "TF" knew Matthew ....

Thanks for that Pete

Yep, a long way to go - I'm doing some thinking - and it might be a few days before I do another more 'serious' post. (some social commitments this weekend......)But the 'stuff' is there - aplenty....:wave:

andrewcriddle · 03-10-2012, 12:25 AM

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Originally Posted by la70119

There are even coins reliably Pilatian that date to 20 CE.

Source please.

Andrew Criddle

Adam · 03-10-2012, 12:52 AM

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Originally Posted by mountainman

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Originally Posted by maryhelena

I'll leave that to others - I'm after Josephus and won't be side-tracked.....

I know you are after Josephus. The parallels you have outlined are reasonable, but I have not yet seen you establish any link between Josephus and the gospel authors. And I cant think of any except for the "TF". That does not mean there isn't any. Someone suggested whoever wrote the "TF" knew Matthew ....

I'm no fan of Joseph Atwill, but his Caesar's Messiah made quite a case that Luke and Josephus were associated forgers. It's in the Archives here.

maryhelena · 03-10-2012, 07:25 AM

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Originally Posted by Adam

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Originally Posted by mountainman

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Originally Posted by maryhelena

I'll leave that to others - I'm after Josephus and won't be side-tracked.....

I know you are after Josephus. The parallels you have outlined are reasonable, but I have not yet seen you establish any link between Josephus and the gospel authors. And I cant think of any except for the "TF". That does not mean there isn't any. Someone suggested whoever wrote the "TF" knew Matthew ....

I'm no fan of Joseph Atwill, but his Caesar's Messiah made quite a case that Luke and Josephus were associated forgers. It's in the Archives here.

Yes, it looks like there is some common ground between 'Luke' and the writing of Josephus. I don't know much, if anything about 'Caesar's Messiah' - seems to be focused on the events surrounding 70 c.e. - while my interest lies much further back than that date.

aa5874 · 03-10-2012, 09:35 AM

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Originally Posted by Adam

..I'm no fan of Joseph Atwill, but his Caesar's Messiah made quite a case that Luke and Josephus were associated forgers. It's in the Archives here.

Well, if you don't accept the opinion of Atwill why do you think others will???

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