aa5874

Who went to a Pauline Church or heard Paul or even saw a single Epistle before the Fall of the Temple c 70 CE?

You NEED to provide WRITTEN statements from credible non-apologetic sources for Paul. The Earliest author of gMark and gMatthew don't seem to know anything about Paul at all.

Examine gMatthew 16.20-

Duvduv

Yes, I know your point exactly and I agree!!!
I simply would like to figure out how it happened that these non-historical Jesus epistles were written and by whom, and WHY there are contradictions among them.
IF all texts were written by some mysterious cabal,I am wondering why they didn't smooth out the discrepancies and contradictions among the epistles and between the epistles and gospels and between the gospels themselves!! UNLESS they were NOT all written by some dark mysterious cabal somewhere...but by other individuals.......
I don't think I can make myself any clearer than that.

Toto

Duvduv - you may be interested in Roger Parvus' theories on Ignatius, and how he ties them to the gospel of John. (Search in this forum and the archives for some threads. You can get his ebook for $6.) It may take you some time to work through, but it will be rewarding. He theorizes that the gospels were put together to bring various factions together, in particular the followers of Apelles, who had been a follower of Marcion.

Robert M. Price will be coming out with a book on Paul, called the Amazing Colossal Apostle, which may be enlightening.

Duvduv

Thanks, Toto. Does Price accept at face value the claims of Irenaeus and Tertullian about the fellow Marcion?

I still can't help wondering how the supposed recipients of the epistles knew to hang on to those obscure letters, but somehow pages and whole books of great theological import to the apologists never managed to survive. Of course this is rhetorical, because I personally do not believe the claims about Marcion or that apologists were writing about him in the 2nd century. I also do not believe that the epistles were written in either the first or second century.

Whatever variety of sects are represented in the epistles and the various gospels may have existed from the second to fourth centuries and could be original source of inspiration for the texts that were later produced. On the other hand, I still don't understand why the budding orthodox chose to make a special case about "Paul" over any and all other potential preachers. Potentially "Paulus" represents all the teachers/preachers of the non-historical Jesus that there ever were, and his name was not the name of an individual by a pseudonym ("The Small One") for a variety of writers, kind of like "Franklin W. Dixon" which was a pseudonym for several writers who wrote the Hardy Boys series.

aa5874

Well, I am not dealing directly with the Gospels and Pauline Epistles but with "Against Marcion" attributed to Tertullian.

However just as authors were INVENTED for the Gospels and Pauline writings the very same is APPLICABLE to writings attributed to Tertullian.

It is clearly shown that Tertullian was NOT acknowledged as one who wrote Against Heresies or Against Marcion by the Apologetic sources that mentioned Tertullian.

"Against Marcion" is probably the LARGEST work against the so-called Heretic and is the Largest work attributed to Tertullian yet virtually all 3rd-4th Apologetic Sources seemed like they NEVER read it or heard of it even though they mention the works of Tertullian.

Tertullian's 5 books of "Against Marcion" with about 147 chapters should have been PUBLICLY circulated.

This INDICATES that there was MORE than one author that used the name Tertullian.

"Against Marcion" attributed to Tertullian was probably written sometime After the end of the 4th century.

Duvduv

That's fine......but if all the texts were done by committee, WHY did they do such a lousy job of keeping all the comparable material on the same track?!

aa5874

Why do you think it was done by COMMITTEE? I did Not make such presumptions.

Duvduv

Then how do you think it was done, say, in the 4th century --- 4 politically correct but contradictory gospels, and all those epistles that contradict one another plus that Book of Acts that contradicts both.....

aa5874

I asked you why do you think it was done by COMMITTEE? Which committee and which century?

I need to get some answers from you. I need to understand what you are talking about.

Duvduv

If you do not believe the texts were produced by some official committee in the 4th century, then WHO in your opinion produced them, and why are there contents so varied? What alternative is there? I am seeking more understanding of information and analysis.