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09-04-2007, 02:44 PM | #51 | |
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During the ancien regime in France, the church was very much established, and the various orders fought for position and privilege under the approving eye of the absolute Bourbon monarchs. (Hence the anti-clericalism of the revolution). Oldest of all were the Benedictine monasteries, with holdings dating back to Merovingian times, with charters from the kings to prove it. A Jesuit, Fr. Papebroch, alleged that many of these old charters granting lands to other orders were forgeries, and thus that the lands should 'revert' to the king. The Dominicans considered this an attack on the church, and requested the intervention of the Holy Inquisition. The Benedictines, on the other hand, took it as a challenge to their scholarship. The Benedictine order had reorganised in France after the Counter-Reformation as the Congregation of St. Maur, with its headquarters at the Royal abbey of St.Germains-des-Pres in Paris, and had acquired a reputation for scholarship that endures to our own day. The task of verifying the authenticity of the charters was handed to Dom Jean Mabillon, one of the leading Maurist fathers. His approach was to compile a volume of the formal script in dated and dateable charters and books, broken down by historical period and geographical region. Having done this, a pattern of book-hands related to period of time became instantly apparent. He could see the characteristics of the Roman capitalis and uncial scripts; the various sub-Roman minuscules, Visigothic, Beneventan, Insular, Merovingian; the omnipresent Carolingian minuscule of the period of Charlemagne and later; the Gothic families of the 13th century; and the humanist book hands. The forgeries among his samples thus stood out like a sore thumb, and could be validly dated. He published his collection as De re diplomatica, which was instantly greeted as a major scientific advance, including by Papebroch. Mabillon acknowledged, however, that the copy of a Benedictine charter of a grant by king Dagobert in 690 was clearly not contemporary with genuine examples of Merovingian minuscule. Over time the process was refined, and so we get Latin paleography as we now have it. Mabillon's co-worker, Dom Bernard de Montfaucon, carried out a similar exercise for Greek, inventing the term 'paleography' as he did so. The same approach is used today, and volumes containing collections of samples from "dated and dateable manuscripts" have been published for many languages which have contributed manuscripts to our national collections. The Maurists sadly did not survive the French Revolution. The mob that stormed the Bastille forced the great gates of St. Germains-des-Pres and forced the monks to flee. All over France the Directorate hastened to deprive the clergy of their property, but not to safeguard it, and the losses were tremendous. The Maurists' fabulous library of manuscripts was partially plundered by a Russian agent, Petrus Dubrovsky, who sent cases of manuscripts to St. Petersburg. He was denounced to the Committee of Public Safety and escaped 24 hours ahead of the soldiers. He left a further collection with the former Royal Librarian. The latter was guillotined during the Terror. His creditors seized everything, broke it up and sold it for a song. The mss. were scattered all over Paris (as Dubrovsky lamented), never to be seen again. The remainder of the library was placed in the new Bibliotheque Nationale. Dubrovsky signed many of his acquisitions, and eventually sold the lot to the Tsar. They may still be seen in the Biblioteca Publichnaya in St. Petersburg. All the best, Roger Pearse |
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09-04-2007, 03:03 PM | #52 | |||
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Hello Jay,
Thank you for your note. Quote:
Now your interpretation of Jerome doesn't square with how I read it. The question is not whether Eusebius forged quotations by Origen, but whether *Rufinus* omitted material by Origen -- attested as Origenian by Eusebius -- which Eusebius attests as genuine. Jerome then adds that possibly Eusebius accepted these forgeries, by these hypothetical others, because they were Arianist; not that Eusebius knew them to be fake (the question is not discussed) but accepted them anyway. Quote:
Rufinus is suggesting that heretics interpolated Origen; that Eusebius accepted these interpolations because he was a heretic himself so couldn't tell the difference. Jerome counters with the example of Didymus the Blind, against whom no such claim can be made, who still includes the supposedly 'interpolated' passages. Quote:
All the best, Roger Pearse |
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09-05-2007, 07:17 AM | #53 | ||||
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Jerome, Rufinus and Photius
Hi Roger,
Yes, you are quite right. The passage that I gave does not support the contention that I supposed; it does not suggest that Jerome is saying that he believes Eusebius forged text supposedly by Origen and inserted it into his work on Origen. Excuse me for getting this wrong. This situation and issues in this Jerome-Rufinus dispute are quite complex. There are all sorts of charges, including charges of heresy, lying, forgery, suppression of information, wrong attribution of authorship and interpolation of passages. While nobody comes out and straightforwardly accuses Eusebius of these things exactly, it is important to note that a text by Eusebius, his "Apology for Origen," is at the heart of it. In the passage I quoted, Jerome is referring to an earlier statement by Rufinus that he found that heretical passages had been inserted into the text. The statements in these heretical passages did not match other passages in Origen, but directly contradicted him. Jerome is accusing Rufinus of making up the idea that these passages were heretical interpolations. He sarcastically suggests that Rufinus dreamt up the whole thing while in an Alexandrian prison. Rufinus had claimed to have been sent to an Alexandrian prison for his devotion to Catholic doctrine and his anti-Arianism. Jerome is implying that Rufinus is implying that Eusebius inserted heretical passages into the work: But possibly he being an Arian, took in these additions of the heretics to support his own error, so that he should not be thought to be the only one who had held false opinions contrary to the Church. Jerome then rejects this possible line of defense by Rufinus by arguing that Didymus was familiar with the work and did not find the heretical passages to be interpolations, but instead found them to be truely by Origen and excusable. He then attributes this position to Eusebius as well: both Eusebius and Didymus adhere to his views, and defend, as said in a catholic and Christian sense, what all the churches reprobate. It is more correct to say that, according to Jerome, Rufinus implied that Eusebius interpolated passages. He does accuse Eusebius of heresy and deception: (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/27101.htm) The real fact is that Eusebius Bishop of Cæsarea, as I have already said before, who was in his day the standard bearer of the Arian faction, wrote a large an elaborate work in six books in defence of Origen, showing by many testimonies that Origen was in his sense a catholic, that is, in our sense, an Arian.The same charge of heresy and perfidy are repeated and expanded upon by Photius: 127. [Eusebius, Life of Constantine] http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...otheca.htm#127
For the moment, I won't go into the complex issues regarding the attribution of the work by Eusebius to Pamphilus; as I wish to get on shortly to giving you some of the other evidence I earlier promised you. In short, we can say that in antiquity, Jerome and Photius accused Eusebius of heresy and deception, while Rufinus seems to have implied that Eusebius forged heretical passages into a work of his own on Origen. Warmly, Philosopher Jay P.S. Here is what I wrote regarding this issue in the book "The Evolution of Christs and Christianities" Quote:
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09-05-2007, 07:44 AM | #54 | |||||||
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The whole argument is also somewhat upside down, in that Rufinus is arguing that the words of Origen have in fact been interpolated by heretics because he wants to preserve the reputation of Origen, while Jerom is arguing that the texts have not been interpolated because he wants to use these passages to attack Origen in order to attack Rufinus. Quote:
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The term 'deception' is your word, but all that I could see that was alleged is a failure to report events with the emphasis that the Nicene writers do. Since he wasn't one, the complaint seems a bit unreasonable. Quote:
Note that there is a set invective found in Byzantine writings against heretics, which involves routinely anachronistically accusing them of dishonesty, so I'm not sure that I would pay a lot of attention if we get into that period. Quote:
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Incidentally renaissance editions of works by Eusebius contain lists of testimonies for and against Eusebius from antiquity. I don't have copies, but such definitely exist. All the best, Roger Pearse |
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09-06-2007, 06:52 AM | #55 | |
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Nice Shooting Text
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JW: Apologists often make statements like "We can be reasonably certain of 99% of what was originally written." First of all, "reasonably" and "certain" are words which usually don't go together. Such statements, without proper qualifications, are Misleading, as those not familiar with the Subject will be unaware of related, critical issues. Often in situations like this it's harder finding the right questions than answering them. For starters Ksen, you need to define "Bible" above. Joseph SCRIPTURES, n. The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based. http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page |
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09-06-2007, 09:53 AM | #56 |
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Just as an FYI, when I say 'NT', I am referring to NA27. I always make that assumption when someone says 'bible' or 'NT' (in any discussion that deals with textual issues) unless they specify otherwise. I mean, it doesn't make much sense to talk about textual accuracy in a translation.
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09-07-2007, 12:31 AM | #57 | |
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Hi Jay,
Just a note to point out that Rufinus actually claims to have in front of him, while translating Origen from the Greek to Latin c.400, a letter written by Origen complaining about the heretics in the third century, who were altering his works as soon as he wrote them. You probably already know about this letter from Origen, which is quoted in full by Rufinus. Quite an amazing letter. Best wishes, Pete Brown Quote:
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