Orthodox_Freethinker

Joseph Smith is one man. We are speaking of 11 out of 12 Apostles.

Peace.

Orthodox_Freethinker

Christ's crucifixion and resurrection were prophecized in the Old Testament. However, I must say again, to Christ's own followers, they figured that in dying on the cross, Christ's mission had failed. Why? They did not fully understand it. This is why Jesus rebuked His own Apostles for their own lack of understanding. This is also why the purpose of His death did not become fully clear to them until He rose again.

It is not something which the Scriptures actually taught of the Messiah but a misinterpretation which many Jews held to out of their hatred of being occupied.

In Luke's Gospel, Jesus commands the Apostles to carry swords for their own self-protection. But in the moment where Christ was betrayed, He told the Apostles not to fight it because it was His mission to be taken by the authorities and executed.

Given that Jesus was so radically different from what the Jews of the time had expected, it is not that suprising that not even His own Apostles would fully understand Him until His mission had been fulfilled.

Only the fool considers 'stupid' that which he does not understand.

Peace.

Steven Carr

No, we are not.

There is as much evidence that the apostles refused to give up their faith , even after being kidnapped by aliens, as their is for what you claim.

Diogenes the Cynic

Matthew, Luke and John got it from mark. The Sanhedrin no longer existed by the time mark invented the empty tomb story.
Paul says nothing about an empty tomb, nor does he say anything about a physical resurrection, He speaks of "appeanaces," but the fact that he does not distinguish between the nature of the appearances to Cephas et al and his own hallucinations suggests that he did not conceive the ressurection as a physical event but a spiritual one. His appearance chronology contradicts all four Gospels, by the way.
That Jesus had ascended to heaven. Mark does not have any physical appearances.
There is no historical evdience for this whatsoever, The Bible doesn't count. The credibility of New Testament claims is precisely what is under discussion. You can'y use the bible to prove the bible.
Nothing half-baked about it. What is your evidence that any spostle ever claimed to have seen a physically risen Jesus after the crucifixion? Remember- the Bible doesn't count as evidence.
The gospels represent Christian claims, not Jewish ones. It is very debatable whether the Talmud says anything about Jesus and even the bits that are alleged to be about Jesus were written hundreds of years after the alleged events.
Sure they exist. They just weren't written by Matthew, Mark, James, Peter or John. This is news to you? (Mark wasn't an apostle even by tradition, by the way)

Nothing in the New Testament was written by an apostle. Sorry to disappoint you but we don't a single word of extant eyewitness testimony for Jesus.
Are you talking to me? I have no idea what you're alluding to with this moon reference but the evidence for the moon landing is entirely unlike the evidence for Jesus' followers thinking he was the Messiah. For example, evidence for the moon landing actually EXISTS. There is no proof at all that anyone thought Jesus was the Messiah. In fact, they couldn't have thought that because he fulfilled none of the requirements. The Jewish Messiah is not defined by birthright but by deeds. No one is the Messiah until he fulfills the requirements.
I seriously doubt that Cossan concedes all of this. I know for a fact that he does not believe the empty tomb was historical, nor does he believe that Jesus claimed to be God (The phrase "son of God" in Hebrew/Aramaic idiom did not mean a literal descendant of God anyway but was simply a designation for people favored or chosen by God...in particular for kings). It's also not true that most NT scholars accept all those things, but even if they did, none of them amount to an acceptance of miraculous events.

Steven Carr

The scriptures written by Jews who could not understand what they were writing?


Which Biblical passages did they 'misinterpret'?

Diogenes the Cynic

Chapter and verse, please?

Orthodox_Freethinker

Matthew and John were Apostles of Christ and Luke, a historian. Even if they relied upon Mark, that does not negate that Matthew and John were witnesses. As a journalist, I may witness a particular event but that doesn't mean that I won't check those who caught it on videotape before I write the story.

I could address the rest of your points but falsehoods aren't really points at all. I wonder if you've actually read the New Testament instead of relying upon second-hand, hostile sources.

What Crossan conceded is that the majority of New Testament scholars would disagree with him on these facts.

Peace.

Orthodox_Freethinker

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=580


Peace.

Please do not cut and paste large segments of copyrighted material from other websites. Post only small snippets or quotes and link to the rest. Thank you

DtC, Moderator, BC&H

Orthodox_Freethinker

Just like there is as much evidence that we never landed on the moon?

Peace.

Steven Carr

and this is why Paul contrasts the Adam who had a body with the Jesus who became a spirit - ie had a body of spirit.

But there is little point in discussing what the Bible really says with someone who claims Hosea 6 is about the Messiah, and that the disciples were baffled by 'He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.'

'He must be killed' is obvious to anybody , even to hand-picked disciples of Jesus who had spent 3 years listening to him teach, and who had even been sent out to preach and teach themselves.

Contrast the poster's claim that 'he must be killed' was utterly baffling to the disciples, with the same person's claim that this is about the Messiah :- Hosea 6:1 "Come, let us return to the LORD. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds. After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.'

The LORD has torn *us* to pieces.There is no mention of a Messiah, and not even a claim that these people actually died.

Christians rape the scriptures.