Freethought & Rationalism Archive

enoch007 · 07-05-2007, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougP

I dont think its a good thing at all. People are people. Countries are completely arbitraty borders, and have nothing particularly to do with anything. I dont necessarily have a problem with having pride in the good things that a country might do, but its thing, not the country, you shoudl ahve pride in.

But isn't the "country" made up of the events of its history which bond all those seen as citizens together with their collective, national identities (inasmuch as it exists)?

skepticalbip · 07-05-2007, 11:09 AM

Patriotism virtue or evil?

Both and neither... depending on how you define patriotism.

If you define patriotism as "whatever my government and country does is right and anybody that doesn't agree should be crushed" then it is certainly an evil.

If however, you define patriotism as "I like the culture and values of the people of my country and will defend our way of life from those abroad or within our government who wish to destroy or corrupt them. Other countries have a right to value their culture, we have a right to value our culture, neither should try to destroy the other." then I would say that this definition of patriotism has value if not virtue.

CanoeMan · 07-05-2007, 12:31 PM

Liking your culture just because you live in it is bad. I say patriotism is bad, pretty much overall.

B.S. Lewis · 07-05-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

Is patriotism a virtue or is it inherently evil, or is it some sort of necessary evil?

Sometimes I struggle with this issue and am interested in what people think.

Here's a good essay on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by enoch007

Patriotism is a feeling one has for one's country. As such, it should not be something encouraged or demanded from the leaders of that country. It is as inappropriate to demand love from another person as it is to demand their patriotism. Either one has it or not.

Hey, that's pretty good.

Mat Wilder · 07-05-2007, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobardon

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

That's all you need to know about the horrors of patriotism.

Great fucking poem!

squiz · 07-05-2007, 11:04 PM

So everyone seems to be of one mind here. Of course this is my feeling too. I just wonder sometimes if it isn't a necessary evil. Eg. without patriotism, the allies wouldn't have been able to defeat Hitler.

DBT · 07-05-2007, 11:37 PM

Patriotism seems to be inseperable from Nationalism. And whatever degree or combination of Nationalism/Patriotism one happens to have is only a part of the issue...as they are inherently divisive concepts.

EricK · 07-05-2007, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

So everyone seems to be of one mind here. Of course this is my feeling too. I just wonder sometimes if it isn't a necessary evil. Eg. without patriotism, the allies wouldn't have been able to defeat Hitler.

But without patriotism would Hitler have risen to power in the first place?

squiz · 07-06-2007, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricK

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

So everyone seems to be of one mind here. Of course this is my feeling too. I just wonder sometimes if it isn't a necessary evil. Eg. without patriotism, the allies wouldn't have been able to defeat Hitler.

But without patriotism would Hitler have risen to power in the first place?

No of course not (although some might make the distinction and call it nationalism). But the patriotism of his enemies was one of the major factors in his defeat.

EricK · 07-06-2007, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricK

But without patriotism would Hitler have risen to power in the first place?

No of course not (although some might make the distinction and call it nationalism). But the patriotism of his enemies was one of the major factors in his defeat.

So the only good thing about patriotism is that allows one to overcome enemy patriots?

I'm not convinced one needs patriotism to overcome someobody who wishes you harm. Basic self-interest will cover that.

And one could argue that patriotism works to the detriment of feeling empathy for people from other countries. Wouldn't it have been better if Hitler could have been stopped sooner? Were the Americans who lobbied for non-intervention at the start of WWII unpatriotic?

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07-05-2007, 11:09 AM	#12
skepticalbip Contributor Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Searching for reality on the long and winding road Posts: 12,976	Patriotism virtue or evil? Both and neither... depending on how you define patriotism. If you define patriotism as "whatever my government and country does is right and anybody that doesn't agree should be crushed" then it is certainly an evil. If however, you define patriotism as "I like the culture and values of the people of my country and will defend our way of life from those abroad or within our government who wish to destroy or corrupt them. Other countries have a right to value their culture, we have a right to value our culture, neither should try to destroy the other." then I would say that this definition of patriotism has value if not virtue.

07-05-2007, 12:31 PM	#13
CanoeMan Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: out for some Rest 'n Relaxation Posts: 3,106	Liking your culture just because you live in it is bad. I say patriotism is bad, pretty much overall.

07-05-2007, 11:04 PM	#16
squiz Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Munich Germany Posts: 434	So everyone seems to be of one mind here. Of course this is my feeling too. I just wonder sometimes if it isn't a necessary evil. Eg. without patriotism, the allies wouldn't have been able to defeat Hitler.

07-05-2007, 11:37 PM	#17
DBT Contributor Join Date: May 2003 Location: ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן ǝɥʇ Posts: 17,906	Patriotism seems to be inseperable from Nationalism. And whatever degree or combination of Nationalism/Patriotism one happens to have is only a part of the issue...as they are inherently divisive concepts.

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