countjulian

Because, try as praxeus might, it cannot be shown that the Tanach had predicted the type of Messiah Jesus is portrayed as being in the NT. The idea of a son of god who was the offspring of a virgin woman and a god, who performs wondrous deeds on earth, dies in agony, conquers death, and "ascends to heaven", as Justin Martyr puts it. The suffering servant verse in Isaiah might cover the dying in agony part, but nothing else there is Hebraic at all. Even if one reads Isaiah as "a virgin shall concieve", that still doesn't cut it, since no where in the Tanach does it say that the Messiah will be the literal son of god (and the verse in question clearly does not refer to the messiah). They had to have gotten these ideas from the current pagan ethos they lived in at the time.

Steven Avery

As expected, your "it should have been this way" was a crocodiles tears suggestion.

As I've already indicated discussions about events on another board are inappropriate in this forum. Ignoring moderator warnings is a bad idea for anyone interested in remaining an active member at IIDB

Amaleq13, BC&H moderator


Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Steven Avery

The primary meaning would be virgin, but not the only and necessary meaning. However, if there is a real b-greek Perseus type of refutation of these, that is fine by me.

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publicat...sues/9_1/almah
for one also finds the word parthenos used in the Septuagint to translate the word na'arah, which merely means "young girl."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_...stian_doctrine)
the great Greek-English Lexicon edited by Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott lists other meanings for the word:
παÏ?θενος, parthenos, I. 1. maiden, girl; virgin, opp. γυνη gynê, "woman". 2. of unmarried women who are not virgins, Iliad 2.514, etc. 3. Parthenos, hê, the Virgin Goddess, as a title of Athena at Athens. 4. the constellation Virgo. II. as adj., maiden, chaste. III. as masc., parthenos, ho, unmarried man, Apocalypse 14.4.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/...n/virgoryw.htm
(discussion on both sides)

http://www.bibletexts.com/glossary/virgin.htm
Harper’s Bible Dictionary
The Greek word parthenos, used to translate both Hebrew words in the lxx, does not necessarily mean ‘virgin,’ but it is so used in the NT.

Now since I do not use or defend the Greek OT in apologetics, and do believe that Matthew was indicating a virgin young woman (context) and that almah has the purity and youth and fertile implication, the issue is minor to me.

Feel free to shoot down those sources, they may be wrong, I will not object if parthenos really mus be only virgin :-)

I think you have the words wrong there.

However, let me point you back to the Daniel Gruber booklet. Maybe he would post it online if requested. I really do not feel to reinvent the wheel on almah/betulah/naarah discussions (one point to keep in mind is category distinctions, if we enter the discussion with the idea that one word means virgin and another doesn't, we may miss the actual differences in the words), but I would like to help get the better material on the web.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
Queens, NY
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Steven Avery

ahh, relax, I read your warning after the post.
We know your not like that other ____ forum here
(in some ways better, in some ways......).

Actually two of the best discussions on NT textual matters I've had were the JesusMysteries and Xianity discussions on the Pastorals and 2Peter. For the most part, point-to-point, sharp and informative,

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Steven Avery

Since I came back here to look for the URL to the JesusMysteries discussion, (since the Pastorals authorship are being discussed on a separate thread) then I realized that the moderator deleted the URL to the discussion. (ok, the context wasn't so much the discussion itself, but the events surrounding it, so that's understandable).

Note I was mentioning that JesusMysteries and Xianity had two of the best threads on the Net on the authorship questions. (one on Pastorals, one on 2 Peter). Shouldn't be anything offensive in that, tis quite true.

Anyway, I want it to be clear that the RED coloring above is not my post, but a color-touchy addition by the esteemed moderator.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Steven Avery

Fascinating, now the RED disappeared (the word JesusMysteries). Ok, back to the pastorals thread, puter stuff can be strange.

Amaleq13

I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to colored text. I certainly didn't change any text colors and I never saw any red text.

With regard to the removed link, here 'tis for anyone interested:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusM.../message/19212