Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WinAce · 11-03-2003, 10:00 AM

Doesn't Josephus mention several incidents in which Pilate actually encouraged insurrections so he could kick some ass with his soldiers?

Vinnie · 11-03-2003, 10:46 AM

If you've read Paula Fredriksen you would know that the real question that needs answering is "Why was Jesus killed but not his followers?"That is the riddle wrapped in the enigma hidden behind the fridge

Vinnie

Radcliffe Emerson · 11-03-2003, 10:50 AM

The answer is:
Jesus never existed and was made up in the bible stories. There is no evidence outside the bible for his existence.

Devilnaut · 11-03-2003, 11:27 AM

Radcliffe, have you heard of gestalt psychology?

A historical and actual Jesus is not what's important (Jesus was convicted by the crowd afterall and what is a historical figure if not a crowd appeaser). For the gospels to be the "word of God" they have to be perfectly honest and the only thing we can truly be honest about is our own mind (our own world). So Jesus was the "main character" of the gospel writer's mind who had to die so that the writer could be truly honest (this would be ultimate sacrifice or ultimate release). Think of the ego as a circle around the source and not the source of anything itself.

Editted to add that if the ego is a ring around the source then we have our actions (beyond the ring) and God and the past (inner to the ring) but God is still thought of as being "outside" (in fact the MOST "outside" being there is) because our perception as humans is from inside the ring, not inside the source. Expression is what passes from the source through the ring (and through your filters/boxes/preconceptions) to the outside world, notice that the weaker the ring the more honest a person is but the "cleaner" the ring the more purely expressive (well worn filters).

I would add that witchery is an "attempt" at being inside the source, but of course all this does is complicate the ego ring and make it overally harder for the source to move.

Devilnaut · 11-03-2003, 11:33 AM

"He was exicuted for sedition by Pilate"

Sedition by the state and blasphemy by the religion, right?

Radcliffe Emerson · 11-03-2003, 11:47 AM

Interesting. However, I think I like the Lord of the Rings tale concerning good and evil better.

Devilnaut · 11-03-2003, 11:56 AM

I think that's a good one too (loved the books when I was younger), but I didn't like all of what they did with the second movie. I do think Jackson did okay to capture the saved/sinner complex of Golem / Smeagol though (great example of a 'witch' or at least someone infected by one). Notice how what helps Smeagol out is when he has a master (because serving something outside himself builds him up), but all that Golem wants to do is beat on Smeagol to vye for power, which is killing him (because if he's concentrated inward growth ends and he withers). Anyway ill stop there before i'm committed..

Vinnie · 11-03-2003, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radcliffe Emerson
The answer is:
Jesus never existed and was made up in the bible stories.

I can see the author of Mark now sketching out the inclusion of all that Gentile related material about Jesus!

At any rate, come on over into the baptism thread. I have demonstrated --in all probability--the historicity of Jesus. Feel free to show otherwise

Quote:

There is no evidence outside the bible for his existence.

So if the Bible contains evidence --your own admission--why are we doubting Jesus' existence again?

Obviously you've never been to Early Christian Writings before. The moderator Peter Kirby over here, well he has this big site with all the early Christian writings on it. These include, much to your astonishment, writings not found in the Bible. Books like Thomas and Q. Ringing any bells?

If interested go here to see for yourself:

www.earlychristianwritings.com

Further, do you accept some form of Biblical inspiration? If you don't it woul be best in historical studies to treat the various "Biblical books" indivudually rather than naively as if they dropped down from heaven in bundled form. Don't say "the Bible".

But if it was your intention to say that only Christians talk about Jesus then you should have said so from the beginning.

At any rate, if this was your intention, who better to tell us about Jesus than his followers?

Vinnie

Radcliffe Emerson · 11-03-2003, 02:00 PM

Archaelogy subjects I've studied, and other historical documents from those periods do not support the bible in general, either Old or New Testaments.
I do not consider anything in the bible having any value as accurate history, or being evidence for Jesus. No non-Christian writer from the period even mentions Jesus, except for the faked passage from Josephus. If Jesus was that famous, known throughout the land, etc, why did noone other than Christian writers mention him?
The tales in the bible are myths, no different from Roman gods, Egyptian gods, Norse gods, Greek gods, or any other fables. They are fables, myth, not true, campfire stories.

Even if some of the characters in there existed, the stories around them are nothing but tales.

WinAce · 11-03-2003, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie

... writings not found in the Bible. Books like... Q.

Q isn't found in the Bible? That's news for advocates of the Two-Source hypothesis.

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11-03-2003, 10:00 AM	#11
WinAce Beloved Deceased Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Carrboro, NC Posts: 1,539	Doesn't Josephus mention several incidents in which Pilate actually encouraged insurrections so he could kick some ass with his soldiers?

11-03-2003, 10:46 AM	#12
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	If you've read Paula Fredriksen you would know that the real question that needs answering is "Why was Jesus killed but not his followers?"That is the riddle wrapped in the enigma hidden behind the fridge Vinnie

11-03-2003, 10:50 AM	#13
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	The answer is: Jesus never existed and was made up in the bible stories. There is no evidence outside the bible for his existence.

11-03-2003, 11:27 AM	#14
Devilnaut Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 374	Radcliffe, have you heard of gestalt psychology? A historical and actual Jesus is not what's important (Jesus was convicted by the crowd afterall and what is a historical figure if not a crowd appeaser). For the gospels to be the "word of God" they have to be perfectly honest and the only thing we can truly be honest about is our own mind (our own world). So Jesus was the "main character" of the gospel writer's mind who had to die so that the writer could be truly honest (this would be ultimate sacrifice or ultimate release). Think of the ego as a circle around the source and not the source of anything itself. Editted to add that if the ego is a ring around the source then we have our actions (beyond the ring) and God and the past (inner to the ring) but God is still thought of as being "outside" (in fact the MOST "outside" being there is) because our perception as humans is from inside the ring, not inside the source. Expression is what passes from the source through the ring (and through your filters/boxes/preconceptions) to the outside world, notice that the weaker the ring the more honest a person is but the "cleaner" the ring the more purely expressive (well worn filters). I would add that witchery is an "attempt" at being inside the source, but of course all this does is complicate the ego ring and make it overally harder for the source to move.

11-03-2003, 11:33 AM	#15
Devilnaut Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 374	"He was exicuted for sedition by Pilate" Sedition by the state and blasphemy by the religion, right?

11-03-2003, 11:47 AM	#16
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	Interesting. However, I think I like the Lord of the Rings tale concerning good and evil better.

11-03-2003, 11:56 AM	#17
Devilnaut Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 374	I think that's a good one too (loved the books when I was younger), but I didn't like all of what they did with the second movie. I do think Jackson did okay to capture the saved/sinner complex of Golem / Smeagol though (great example of a 'witch' or at least someone infected by one). Notice how what helps Smeagol out is when he has a master (because serving something outside himself builds him up), but all that Golem wants to do is beat on Smeagol to vye for power, which is killing him (because if he's concentrated inward growth ends and he withers). Anyway ill stop there before i'm committed..

11-03-2003, 02:00 PM	#19
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	Archaelogy subjects I've studied, and other historical documents from those periods do not support the bible in general, either Old or New Testaments. I do not consider anything in the bible having any value as accurate history, or being evidence for Jesus. No non-Christian writer from the period even mentions Jesus, except for the faked passage from Josephus. If Jesus was that famous, known throughout the land, etc, why did noone other than Christian writers mention him? The tales in the bible are myths, no different from Roman gods, Egyptian gods, Norse gods, Greek gods, or any other fables. They are fables, myth, not true, campfire stories. Even if some of the characters in there existed, the stories around them are nothing but tales.

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