rlogan

Emotion isn't much of an argument.

Yes, absolutely the phony heritage is superficial. They lifted the entire passion from Isaiah, yes. It was a necessity to credential Jesus somehow.

You MUST say he is fulfillment of ancient scripture in order to credential him. You take that marketing strategy apparently and give no inspection to it.

In other words, you are doing exactly what dupes do. All I have to show you is a few lines quote-mined out of the HB and you fall for it. Yes, Jesus is the Jewish messiah. No need to actually read what the HB says. Just listen to the Christian salesman, thanks.

They had to ignore the rest of Isaiah in quote-mining the passion scene. You need to explain how it is that Jesus fulfills nothing else except the narrow out-of-context quote mines.

Are you trying to make the argument that in your opinion Jesus actually is the fruition of Torah? The word messiah, or something kin to it, is not even in the Torah. No trinity. One God.

In the apocryphal literature we do see this idea of messiah creeping in, but there is so much about Jesus that is completely inconsistent with Judaism that it is a theory Jesus came to end Judaism, not fulfill the law. The Jews strongly object to this naturally. Judaism is not Christianity, bub. They do not worship Jesus. He is not their Savior. It is a graft only the Christians try to make, and it is a very poor one.

http://messiahjew.com/jewishmessiah.aspx

You can read all of the apologetics on why the Jews are so wrong about Jesus having anything remotely to do with Judaism. A lot of it depends on Jesus doing what he was supposed to do the second time around. Second coming. (Actually the third, given he supposedly already came a second time)

But there is no second or third or fifth chance for the messiah. No scriptural basis for it whatsoever in the Hebrew Bible.

It is ludicrous to pose Jesus as coming to fulfill the law of Torah when in fact he abolishes it. I understand why you don't "get" this. You are not Jewish, so you have no respect or understanding for their beliefs.

Which is exactly why you fall for it whereas the Jews have a visceral reaction to what they see on the face of it as anti-Judaic.

In short, you proved my point precisely.

No Robots

Right. Christianity is Judaism for non-Jews.

Why not read what Jews actually have to say about Christ?

gentleexit

I couldn't agree more. I don't know if you do though - "dupes" etc. And how do you read me as making "the argument that in your opinion Jesus actually is the fruition of Torah" then educate me that "Judaism is not Christianity, bub" and then go on to "understand why you don't 'get' this". You're arguing with yourself - are you a dogged believer of some sort? A defender of some great truth against bogeymen?

What I do think is that evidence has Judaism in flux in the time we're talking about and Christianity was part of that mix. Christianity wasn't, for example, part of the flux of Greek sophistry or philosophy, the path leading to Iamblichus and Julian and all. It was a "Jewish" (broad sense) thing. Constantine's adoption turned it outwards.

Superficial is relative. It is no more superficial than its peers and better than most. Is Augustus in Aeneas' line? Need Alexander have appeased Priam's spirit to compensate for his ancestors? Does Rabbinical Judaism carry the true flame for that matter? Lore builds lore and you can build many tales, each more or less credible from it if it is good enough.

Not ludicrous. It's a reading, a tale from tales - which is how they reasoned then. Unless you want to say that these things can only be read one way? In this century, that would be ludicrous.

mountainman

Dear rlogan and others,

When did it become necessary to credential Jesus somehow?

If we were able to graph the necessity to credential Jesus on a century by century basis, starting with the first through to the fifth, how do you think the graph would look? Here are a number of options ....

Option (1): - Equal

Century 1: XXX
Century 2: XXX
Century 3: XXX
Century 4: XXX
Century 5: XXX


Option (2): - Necessity to credential Jesus early

Century 1: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Century 2: XXXXXXXXXXXXX
Century 3: XXXXXXXXX
Century 4: XXXXXX
Century 5: XXX


Option (3): - Necessity to credential Jesus late

Century 1: X (underground credentialism)
Century 2: X (underground credentialism)
Century 3: XX (underground credentialism)
Century 4: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Century 5: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


Option (4): - Necessity to credential Jesus all-of-a-sudden!!!

Century 1:
Century 2:
Century 3:
Century 4: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Century 5: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


Best wishes,



Pete

dog-on

I disagree with this.

Anything written by the "Jews" about Jesus was simply a reaction to the Christian religion itself and not specifically connected to an actual Jesus.

You know this. Why are you trying to make them say something they are not?

Kinda disingenuous, I must say.

figuer

Massive? I only said significant. Considering the relative religious freedom of the Roman Empire and its passion for exotic cults, there is nothing out of the ordinary about the idea of a large Christian minority before Constantine. That is not the same as a claim that Christianity would have achieved its dominance without official support, a position which you are wrongly trying to project into my statement.

figuer

Yes. Since whites and half-whites make up 80% of the population of Latin America, it happens that 80% of its population is descended from Roman citizens, Christians at least since the time of Theodosius. Thus it wasn't a handful of priest or conquistadors imposing a religion from above, but an immigrant Christian society which both supplanted and absorbed the natives.

No Robots

Do you advocate a mythicist mission to the Jews, to cure them of their mistaken ideas about the historicity of Christ?

dog-on

Maybe they were just responding to the issues at hand and never considered the possibility that they were actually dealing with nothing more than a simple myth.

No Robots

Or maybe with the breaking of Church power, Jews are finally in a position to reclaim Christ as one of their own, notwithstanding the mythicists.