bacht

Well, with the caveat that I'm not a scolar, just another nobody with a keyboard...

I lean towards an historical Paul, more or less as described in the epistles, preaching a spiritual Christ expected to manifest soon. The transition from apocalyptic Judaism to orthodox Christianity is plausible enough in the usual reconstruction of events.

But I can also see how later Christians, anxious to give authority to their theft of Jewish beliefs, would want to craft an appropriately "heroic" story of origins, in particular regarding the apostle to the gentiles.

As non-professionals you & I have the freedom to speculate all kinds of things. I respect the caution that historians and biblical scholars are expected to use. They understand the technical problems, and are familiar with the theories of others in the field.

Ben C Smith

Welcome, welcome! Pull up a chair. This is where many of us nobodies with keyboards like to hang out.

Ben.

bacht

Thanks Ben. I don't know if there is an "interested amateur" ranking here, but I like to think I have enough smarts to follow most of the arguments :redface:

I'm just on my way to pick up my copy of Price's "Pre-Nicene New Testament", I'll probably be regurgitating some of it here as I get thru it...

Joan of Bark

I'm reposting this because I think it's a good question. Anyone?

Doug Shaver

Not your fault. You said nothing that would have led anyone of ordinary intelligence to believe you were arguing as a Christian apologist.

Newfie

Hey, you won't find many actual scholars hanging around here. They spend all their writing time on stuff they can get published. Not that publishing ideas about religion automatically makes one a scholar. While I find Christopher Hitchens, Lee Stroble, Rick Warren, and others oftentimes entertaining to read I wouldn't consider them scholars, just folks giving their opinions like those found here. Even Ignatius, Origen, Polycarp, and Paul himself, should he have actually existed, can't be considered scholars so you are in pretty good company.

Do you think that the Gentile "Godfearers" mentioned in Acts could have done this?

They also have to restrain themselves from exercises in pure speculation least they lose their credibility through peer review. No credibility means no academic publishing or teaching, and that fancy doctorate degree just becomes another wall decoration in their rumpus room. Of course, without academic credibility they could make use of the Ph. D that they are still entitled to add to the end of their name and write non-scholarly books, many of which still end up on the shelves of bookstores.

bacht

Well, Strobel is in the fundie camp, on the same shelf as "Late Great Planet Earth" or "Left Behind". But you're right, scholars are ultimately just giving their informed opinion, and they have their own personal concerns as we all do.

I'm in the mythicist camp these days, which apparently is still on the fringe of contemporary scholarship. Millions of words have been written trying to explain how Jesus could have existed and what he was doing. The Jesus Seminar has spent twenty years deconstructing the gospels, but afaik they still haven't presented a definitive picture of this Jewish superman. Paul is almost as elusive. It all seems like a wild goose chase, but the stakes are high for believers.

The good news is that we have learned a lot about the period between the Maccabees and Constantine. Future historians will be able to build on this knowledge, even if the whole Christian story evaporates.

Newfie

Strobel is in one camp and Hitchens is in the other. Neither one of them strikes me as particularly open-minded despite their journalistic credentials. Like political extremes, where Nazis and Stalinists are on opposite ends of the Right / Left wing spectrum ideologically, you would be hard pressed to find a distinction based on their methods.

I don't think that the stakes are particularly high for all believers individually. There are a lot of people who will choose to believe what they want no matter what evidence is presented to them, and I will extend that to all sides in the belief/non-belief debate. There are a great many believers who will go on believing what they always have even if Jesus' bones were discovered along with his personal diary denying his divinity, and there are atheists who will continue to go on believing what they always have even if Jesus did appear Ã* la Revelations. These people will believe what they want until they die. With time, and new discovery, either side could see a dramatic surge in popularity, so the stakes are high, but only over time.

There is also the possibility that future work and discoveries could make the atheist position evaporate. I wouldn't bet on it right now, but you can never tell with the future, can you?

bacht

heh, you are an optimist aren't you? I don't believe in anything supernatural, so unless someone proves something basic I won't be lining up - the closest we got was the alleged ossuary of James, another dead end...

Newfie

I don't have to be an optimist, I just have to have imagination. The USA, for example, is just one major disaster away from a virtual takeover of the country by the Evangelical Right, regardless of any evidence actually supporting their position. In a time of absolute crisis, say in the event of a pandemic, people will flock to one side of this debate out of pure fear, and you can guess which side I'm thinking of here.

I was a fan of the CBS show Jericho last year, but the most unbelievable part about it, I found, was that the religious zealots didn't make a showing. How realistic was that?

Now, take any significant discovery that could support the Christian position and it doesn't even have to be vaguely supernatural, a manuscript or an archeological find say, and you could see an injection into the vitality of the faith that would immunize generations against all other logical arguments. Not only that, but an even more emboldened Christian Right would feel perfectly justified in suppressing atheistic views completely. What chance would reason have then?

Have you ever read American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War On America by Hedges? It wouldn't take that much, my friend, not at all!