MsChutzpah

Let me see if I can make this as simple; and as clear as possible for the theists who think there is no difference with regards to the "you never were a "true" Christian, or "true" atheist" statements:


An atheist LACKS a god belief..........(for whatever reasons).
SOME may have never given it any thought; never did any investigation or research. And, they may just simply reject the idea. <~~~~~~~THESE "atheists" are the ones that might later become a theist.

HOWEVER..........there is NO WAY, Jose, that it is possible for the atheist to become a theist........IF :

he/she has carefully researched, studied, examined, and given great thought to all the mountains of evidence/facts/histories, regarding the matter.

There is simply NO way that I could ever UN-LEARN and or ignore all this that I have found out by years of study and thought, and return to ignorance. An impossibility, for sure.

MsChutzpah

There is a surefire way to determine IF the theist is telling the truth when he/she claims: "I was an atheist, but now am..."..., and that is:

Ask them some basic science questions. Ask them to explain what the Scientific method is. Ask them for their definition of LIBERTY; or freethought. Ask them to explain what a "theory" means in the Science realm, as opposed to the regular, everyday laymen's term or thought with regards to when they say "it's just a theory". Ask them what atheism means; and the difference in strong versus weak atheists. There are so many many ways to find out whether somone is blowing smoke and has no idea what they are talking about when they CLAIM to have been a former atheist.

King Rat

I deconverted at the age of 7. I tried as hard as I could to deny my deconversion for 7 more long, denial filled years. It was impossible. Once you have partaken of the fruit from the tree of knowledge, there is no going back.

Once a skeptic, always a skeptic.

Amos

Wow, MsChutzpah! I like the high horse you come riding in on. Paul was much the same as you and in fact he may have been just a little bit worse if he was persecuting Christians.

Do you realize that beyond your intelligence lies a vast pool of knowledge from where you are extracting all your insights? How else could with every answer you find so many more question 'pop' into your mind that beg for understanding, and is it not these questions that lead you to inquire further and deeper towards the Ultimate truth?

Biff the unclean

4God: ..however if you look at the story....
The problem you bring up in quoting this story is that it shows quite clearly the context of being "born again." Members of the Dionysian cult would be metaphorically reborn spiritually in emulation of their God doing so physically.
When Jesus says that you must be born again it is without context, unless you consider the practices of the Dionysians.

...also..the "father" did not send this same son to die for the sins of the world. Just to clarify
Because the Dionysian cult did not hold humankind in contempt as does the Christian. There is no universal "sin" that the world is guilty of. Like the Jews they also had a story of the first woman letting evil into the world. She peeked into a box she wasn't supposed to instead of having a between meals snack. And just like the Jews, this was not "the Fall of Man".
When you died you went to the God Hades and, based on your personal merit, he assigned you to the Elysian Fields or to Tartarus .
Not only did the Christians invent the idea of a demigod who could save you from universal sin they invented the universal sin that you needed to be saved from. The Jews never heard of such a silly thing� Just to clarify.
Dionysus (who changed water into wine, and also walked on water by the way) descended into Hades realm and rescued the ghost of Semele. After three days in the underworld he and the ghost of Semele ascended to Mount Olympus where she was deified. Hundreds of years BCE the Dionysians venerated the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. But to them the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mother were one in the same person. The three in one of the Dionysian Trinity were three Gods in one family. Not some muddled self-contradictory Xian style Trinity.

King Rat

I'm not Ms. Chutzpah but:

Yes, the universe is a wondrous and infinite playground of the mind.

Oooop, now we're making a huge jump from A to B. I'm getting the impression that you are anthropomorphising the universe, which would be a bit arrogant, not to mention trivializing.

Yep, but I say poe-TAH-toe...

Biff the unclean

Amos try reading Euripides' The Bacchae that MysteryProf just told us about. In it you'll find the story of Paul's conversion, in fact it's the main plot line. You will even find Jesus famous "kicking at pricks" speech from Acts
The only problem is that The Bacchae was more than 400 years old when Paul was born. That's one of those pesky facts we Atheists find so hard to un-learn.

Amos

Oh but Biff, everybody has such a high horse and Pauls story is not unique if that same horse can be ours. I understand and I understand that very well.

No I did not read The Bacchae but know the story if it is the same as Pauls. Pauls story is just a parable and therefore the same as The Bacchae. I know the story well and that is why I can give a warning to the "no-way" expressed by MsChutzpath. Having said this, the likelyhood of this happening is very very small and therefore I used Paul as an example (there are not many Pauls around).

Amos

Did you think the universe has any substance unless we give it to her?

King Rat

Please clarify.