Iskander

The catholic interpretation is as good as any other interpretation.

spin

We start with evidence, not interpretations. Without evidence no interpretation is valid.

Iskander

1 Cor 15:3 is the evidence the rest is interpretation.

spin

Evidence of what exactly?

Iskander

It is the subject of this thread and it is the evidence presented for discussion.

spin

This doesn't go to answering my question. Evidence of what exactly? If you can't answer the question with any directness, you aren't putting forward evidence, but data.

aa5874

That is COMPLETE Speculation.

NO character called JESUS CHRIST was CRUCIFIED, buried and RAISED on the THIRD DAY in the OLD TESTAMENT.

In the EXTANT NT CANON, PAUL never wrote that he was THE FIRST to PREACH the FAITH.

It is EXTREMELY CRITICAL that we UNDERSTAND that.

It is EXTREMELY CRITICAL that we UNDERSTAND that the Church CLAIMED there was a TRADITION that "PAUL" was AWARE of gLuke and that gMatthew was ALREADY written when "PAUL" was ALIVE.

"Against Heresies" 3.1.1
"Church History" 3.4.8 There is NO story from antiquity that "Paul" was NOT aware of the FAITH and the written Jesus story.

And, the same applies.

I don't know about other forum participants, but THERE is ZERO credible evidence of antiquity that "PAUL" of the NT CANON had a "lifetime" BEFORE the Fall of the Temple c 70 CE.

We ONLY have CLAIMS that during "PAUL'S lifetime" that he was AWARE of gLuke and that gMatthew was WRITTEN when "he" was in ROME.

Let us NOT INVENT any more stories about "PAUL".

stephan huller

There is no one who seriously doubts that Marcion developed the first interpretation of Pauline material. I happen to think that Marcion WAS 'Paul' but that is a side issue. It is very dangerous to dismiss things we don't fully understand in order to make way for the familiar (and thereby dismiss Christianity).

The key to making sense of Marcionitism is clearly the Marcionite division of 'Jesus' and 'Christ' as two separate figures. I don't think the Marcionites were hostile to the Jewish scriptures only the application of the messianic prophesies current in the 'great Church.'

If I am right about parallels between Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Ambrose and the Marcionites (in other words the Alexandrian tradition) it is worth noting that Clement's citation of Pauline material is as strange as his citation of the 'gospel.' My guess is that Clement's application of Deut 18:18 to Jesus - not as 'Christ' - but taking it literally i.e. as 'the prophet' or the God who spoke through the prophets is the key to unlocking everything.

It must be remembered that the Samaritans (and Philo) know nothing about the messiah concept. The Samaritans use Moses as the paradigm for the one who is to come. They don't accept Moses as a king in anyway (Philo does of course). As such 'the prophet' only has a relation with Moses.

The way Samaritans develop their exegesis here is through numerology (after the man who founded their halakhah - Marqe). Moses is identified as both ShemaH (the Samaritan equivalent of HaShem) and Shilo. But are these specifically 'messianic' in the sense of a 'son of David'? No, the Samaritan position was likely shared by the Jewish Sadducees (there were apparently Samaritan Sadducees too).

To this end I wonder if Marcionitism developed from the idea that Law and the prophets had an imperfect understanding of the process by which the messiah (i.e. the son of David) would be manifest. As it turned out - according to the Marcionites - the Son of God had to prepare the messiah with a mystery ritual, die on the cross and resurrect himself in the flesh of 'the Christ.' This is consistent with the Alexandrian interpretation of 'the Incarnation' as an ongoing process not limited to the birth of Jesus.

Got to get back to work ...

Iskander

I am a generous man, let us call it data

Data presented by the OP for discussion


http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/data

aa5874

What STRAWMAN nonsense.

Over 1700 years ago Hippolytus CONTRADICTED you.

"Refutation Against All Heresies" 7 Based on Hippolytus, Marcion used the doctrine of EMPEDOCLES not "PAUL". Marcion used MATERIAL from EMPEDOCLES.