Johnny Skeptic

My opening statement is directed towards Christians, although skeptics are certainly welcome to make comments.

I do not see any good reasons at all to assume that God is good and that the Devil is evil. Actually, I do not see any good reasons at all to believe that there is a Devil. Why isn’t it plausible that God is planning on sending everyone to hell, and is enjoying deceiving a lot of people into following him by accurately predicting the future and sometimes healing sick people? The Resurrection might have been one of his deceptions. If there can be an evil and deceptive Devil, why can’t there be an evil and deceptive God?

As a side issue, Christians claim that there is sufficient evidence for people to become Christians. For example, William Lane Craig speaks of "multiple, independent attestations." Many Christians put great emphasis on the the 5,000 existing copies of the original manuscripts, the historical accuracy of the Bible, and Biblical archaeology. Is such evidence really all that convincing? Well, it is to lots of people, but ONLY because the Bible promises believers a comfortable eternal life. There should not be any doubts whatsoever that if all of the evidence were EXACTLY the same with the single exception that God is evil and will send everyone to hell, not only would Christians have rejected Christianity, but they would have gone out of there way to disprove it and accept another religion that promised them eternal comfort. No matter what the religion, the lure of eternal comfort will ALWAYS cause believers to defend all kinds of perposterous and outlandish claims. It is interesting to note that the followers of all religions couldn't care less who provides them with eternal comfort as long as it is available. Eternal comfort is definitely to goal. Who provides it is completely irrelevant.

sharon45

Well christianity already supports god as to being an extreme liar through the misguided ramblings of jesus and co., so of course there is no more real trust left with this idea after that.

JaredM

If you follow the basic storyline of Christianity, it is so patently absurd that there is no possible way it is even plausible. God creates man with free will, god curses man for using it. God gives man a bunch of laws which are difficult, if not impossible to follow precisely to the letter, instead of simply altering our physical reality to keep us from disobeying. When man (inevitably) breaks these "laws", he sends them to hell.

But then, God came down in the form of a man, and sacrificed himself on the cross. But of course, it wasn't a real sacrifice, because he didn't really die...he was resurrected.

Jesus allegedly died for the sins of man, but this is bullshit. Jesus cannot save us if we don't believe in him. (Whereas reality is reality, and it won't just go away if you choose not to believe in it.) Apparently, God will cast us into hell for simply not believing in him. The "sacrifice" of Jesus was no act of altruism on the part of God, because we have to submit to him in order to be "saved" from his wrath.

The cross is a metaphor for guilt and shame, and being born again is a metaphor for obedience and submission to authority. So not only is the Christian God evil, he is also emotionally manipulative.

Of course, none of this really matters, because it's all just a bunch of tall tales and made-up stories about purely fictional characters (or in some cases, real people who were later fictionalized and embellished).

--Jared

Chili

So why do you think they crucified him?

Chili

No, the cross of eternal salvation is for sinners only and that makes sin good.

Chili

Faith becomes the devil: get the behind me satan is the name of the game.

blues runner

This shit is always the same....

Good, evil, free-will...believers always hold fast to the same answer: God's Will.

Example: A little girl is abducted and a search party sent into the woods to rescue her. The girl's family is already grieving. After a week, she is found, bruised and hungry but otherwise healthy. Family: "Praise the Lord! God's Will has been done."

Or...Girl is found decapitated and sexually abused post-mortem. Family: Tragedy has befallen us and our tears seem to have no end, but at least we know our child is forever safe in the loving arms of the Lord. God's Will great. We choose to fear Him, not question Him. Of one thing we are certain...God's Will will always be done...

Fundie's answer to everything: It is the Will of God. Whether a murdering rapists chooses to act of his own volition and cause destruction and pain, somehow his sick free-will is interpreted by desperate, fear-filled fundies as being "God's Will." People do some good deeds, on the other hand? Can you guess? Yep, same thing: "God's Will."

Humans are god's creation? If so, our brains our part of that creation. It is so wrong to actually use these things to THINK? Or is thinking not doing His Will?

JED

Worldtraveller

Well, the Book of Job (as one example amongst many) pretty much shows that god is evil, doesn't it?

Cheers,
Lane

Yahzi

God has something Xians want. Flattering God is the only way to get it. But even Xians can't bring themselves to flatter a sick monster. Hence, God must be good, so they can flatter him in good conscience, so they can get what they want.

Huxley

Johnny Skeptic, if we are going to go by what the Bible says, I would say that there is no proof that God is not evil. As a matter of fact, the God in the Bible is both good and evil.

I shall now prove this by quoting verses:

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else." -- Isaiah 45:6

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -- Isaiah 45:7

Right here, in these two verses, God says that he is the Lord, that there is none else, that he creates both good and evil, light and darkness, and there is none else who does [causes] these things.

A large part of that has already been discussed by myself in another thread. It deals with Satan, Hell, Fire and Brimstone. If you are interested, here is the following thread:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php...3&postcount=18

That said, I shall now discuss topics that were not brought up in the thread that were not already mentioned.

Devil

The term 'devil', or diabolos, number 1228 in Strong's Concordance Greek Lexicon, means false accuser or slanderer. If I falsely accuse you of something, I become your devil. It does not mean I grow horns or a tail or anything like that.

Since I am on a roll here, I feel that I should continue further.

Lucifer

I know that Lucifer was not even brought up in this topic, however I feel that it needs to be discussed.

Lucifer appears only 1 time in the Bible, which is in Isaiah 14:12. Many of the huckster pastors out there cling onto this verse alone, and preach that this is proof where Lucifer was once an archangel in Heaven, who lead the choir, rebelled against God, and took one third of the angels along with him and became Satan and the followers became demons.

How did this ever become part of the Christian dogma as we know it today? It’s a fourth century church doctrine that came from an Ugaritic myth about the Northstar trying to take the place of the sun in the sky. A thousand years and a man by the name of John Milton, a poet, made that story so popular it became deeply ingrained in part of Christianity.

The truth is, Lucifer was never an archangel in Heaven. If you were to read Isaiah 14:4, you would see that God is addressing the King of Babylon. It reads as follows: "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!" God wanted Isaiah to relay this to the King because of his false pride, that his kingdom was going to be taken away from him, because he viewed himself as God, and thought he could do whatever he wanted to.

It may come as a surprise to you, but before the King James 1611 AD, Lucifer did not appear in that verse. That verse read as follows: "How you have fallen from the heavens, shining star, son of morning! You who weakens the nations are cut down to the ground". Early Catholic Church Fathers, notably Origen, inserted the word "Lucifer" into that verse. This changed verse was adopted by Christians largely because they could not read Hebrew text.

In Strong's Concordance Hebrew Lexicon, number 1966, lucifer, or heylel, means morning star.

Let's take a look at a similar verse in the Bible, where "Christ" can be compared to "Lucifer" or vise versa:

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:" - 2 Peter 1:19

In Strong's Concordance Greek Lexicon number 5459, day star, or phosphoros, means light bearing or, figuaritively speaking, morning star for that matter. So 2 Peter 1:19 is describing Jesus Christ being the light of the world.

In old English, people would have asked for a "lucifer" for their cigar. Today, people ask for a "light" for their cigarettes.

And there you have it. And really, that is all there is to it. There really is no Satan, Devil, Lucifer, or any other "separate God" that is an evil superpower or in rebellion against God or Jesus Christ. What you do have is if the God in the Bible does exist, both good and evil are created by Him alone.

That is, of course, if you are just wanting to rely on the Bible by itself.