Jack the Bodiless

Um, no. This is a fantasy of Christian apologists.

The Jews developed a literary habit of "midrash", in which they sought to link new stories to older ones by quoting the older scripture, expanding on themes and ideas first presented in the older scripture, and so forth. But there is no evidence that the Old Testament prophets themselves deliberately created "dual fulfilment" prophecies. This belief among apologists apparently arose in a feeble attempt to justify the blatant misuse of out-of-context quotes by later authors, most notably the author of the Gospel of Matthew.

Also, they weren't really interested in predicting the distant future. They were ranting to those then in power.
...More apologetic fantasies to excuse prophecy-failure.
I'm guessing this is part of an apologetic excuse for the Christian misinterpretation of Genesis 2:17. See Adam and Eve: there was no "spiritual death"
Probably for the same reason there aren't any scholarly peer-reviewed (by world class scholars in directly applicable fields) studies which show that the Earth is not flat.

John A. Broussard

Absolutely correct.

The enormous amount of scholarly information on the internet regarding the existence of invisible pink unicorns on the third outer planet of the Tau Ceti system is meagre, at best.

Your argument is irrefutable.

luminous

Based on the knowledge I have about this prophecy, I'd say it's highly unlikely the prophecy was fulfilled. I've read every explanation I could find by Christian apologists, and none come even close to showing how this prophecy was fulfilled.

BUT, there may be something that I don't understand or know which prevents me from understanding it. So I'm still allowing for the possiblity that this is indeed a fulfilled prophecy.

Johnny Skeptic

Do you have any credible evidence that the predictions predated the events? If not, then your argument is not valid. If the predictions post-dated the events, then obviously the supposed prophecy is not a prophecy. Even if the prophecy predated the events, and even if the events happened, what about the prophecy indicates divine inspiration?

luminous

1. We already had this discussion. See page 14.
2. If I don't see any possible fulfillment to the prophecy anyway, dating is irrelevant.


I've already answered this.

Johnny Skeptic

Where was that? Since you do not claim that the Tyre prophecy came true, will you please start a new thread regarding another prophecy of your choosing that 1) provably predates the events, 2) came true, and 3) indicates divine inspiration?

What is the point of prophecy? Is God trying to convince people that he can predict the future? Have any of his predictions helped people to avoid natural disasters and plagues?

By the way, even if God can predict the future, I would not worship him because of his questionable character. Logically, there is no automatic correlation that can be made between the ability to predict the future and goodness unless the possesor of such an ability were to consistently make lots of predictions that helped people avoid such things as natural disasters and plagues. If you had the ability to predict where hurricanes will go, would you publish your predictions?

mata leao

continued.......wow, what a week, sorry it took so long to get back, a few more weeks like this one and I can retire erlier than I had planned...anyway...where were we? I was hoping to finish posting more of the material I had on the Hebrew way of thinking and writing in the prophetic, but I can always post the rest of the material later. Analysis 1! (keep in mind that some woul d say there are about thirty of these, so if you want to "crucify" someone for an analysis you dont like-then as a mideast studies prof I once had said"you pays your money you takes your choice(quoting P.T. Barnum).....1. Ezekiel is a captive/exiled intellectual who is being treated fairly well by the Babylonians, given the Babylonian system of triaining selected captives as "bureacrats",etc. b. The jews despise the people of Tyre for the forced prostitution and concubinry of young jewish girls and also they despise the people of Tyre for their idolatry, immorality and many other reasons. c. The jews dont exactly have any love's labors lost for the Babylonians either (who invaded them and took them captive). d. and the jews dont like the Greeks either, the Greeks are major "facilitators" in taking jewish people into slavery, especially children.e. Ezekiel wants Babylon to destroy and humiliate Tyre. Ezekile also wants to weaken and wear out the bablyonian "hegemony" in the mediteranean(which will eventually facilitate jewish liberation) and Ezekiel wants to see the arrogant Greeks recklessly overextend their conquests and be weakened by "diseconomies of scale". f. Ezekiel is no mere armchair strategic dreamer- he is a prophet of Almighty Jehovah God. g. Ezekiel brillianty sets forth the propehcy concering the destruction of Tyre. It succeeds brilliantly. It emboldens the Babylonians to launch the first "wave" against Tyre, without telegraphing to the Babylonians (who are having cash flow problems of empire and need spoils/treasure) that they will fail in this, and it succeeds in giving the people of Tyre a false sense of security (given they are a strong sea power and can jettison their mainland position and smugly stand firm on their island fortress),and it leads to the repatriation of the jewish captives/slaves and children from the mainland of Tyre,and h. Ezekiel, by "telescoping" his prophecy, gives cover to the Greeks who will use a brilliant and completely unexpected miracle of military engineering to defeat Tyre. And for the hat trick! Alexander dies in Babylon(of malaria or likely venereal disease from his bisexual immorality)! Not bad Ezekiel, not bad!

Jack the Bodiless

mata leao:

You seem to have entirely overlooked the fact that the prophecy FAILED.

Nebuchadrezzar failed to perform the actions that HE (specifically) was prophesied to do: notably, to breach Tyre's walls.

You also overlooked Ezekiel's second prophecy-failure regarding Nebuchadrezzar: he was promised Egypt as compensation for the failure at Tyre, and that failed too.
...Evidence would be useful here.

And the great expansion of Greek power came long AFTER these events, and Tyre played NO part in Alexander's eventual death.

You seem to be posting from a parallel Universe.

mata leao

jack, are you smoking something? the prophecy succeeded to the letter brilliantly. Tyre (the empire of tyre-the greatest sea power in the region) was destroyed and never rebuilt.and i didnt say tyre played ANY part in his death, I noted that death in BABLYON as somehthing of a humorous aside(a kind of-you Greeks sold our children into protstitution and mighty Aleaxander died like a dog in his own filth from venereal disease in BABYLON)....

Johnny Skeptic

Ezekiel did nothing of the kind. Hundreds, if not thousands of people surely knew of Nebuchadnezzar's invasion plans months in advance. A spy might easily have carried the news to Ezekiel. In addition, ancient historian Richard Carrier said that Ezekiel might have learned of the invasion first hand by travelling to Babylon. Given Nebuchadnezzar's great power, his proven penchant for conquest, the riches of Tyre, and Babylon's close proximity to Tyre, it would have been unusual if he had not attacked Tyre.

Rubbish. Historically, kingdoms rising and falling has been the rule, not the exception. Who says bisexuality is immoral? Most certainly not God. God has never made a public statement about bisexuality and homosexuality.

Regarding your "brilliant and completely unexpected miracle" in reference to Alexander's land bridge to the island, military historians will tell you that military history is full of brilliant, completely unexpected military strategies.

Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander were pagan conquerers and murderers, and they most certainly were not friends of God and Jews. The Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2004 says "On March 16, 597 BC, he (Nebuchadnezzar) captured Jerusalem and took Jehoichin, king of Judah, and many of his people captive to Babylonia. He was subsequently troubled by major revolts in Babylonia (595 BC) and in Judah (588-587 BC), which were vigorously punished; many more Jews were exiled to Babylonia."

What evidence do you have that the Tyre prophecy was not made after the events? What evidence do you have that the prophecy was not revised decades after it was written. Unless you can accurately date the prophecy, you shouldn't call it a prophecy.

You love to crow about how God defeated his enemies, but during much of human history, including today, God's enemies have done quite well against his people. Christians are in fact their own worst enemies. Eating harmful foods and/or smoking cigarettes cause more premature deaths by far than from all other causes combined (Is this not immoral from a Christian viewpoint?), and yet you have the audacity to call Alexander and bisexuality immoral.