Elijah

I don't have a problem understanding I just don't buy into it. I don't believe that random changes are ever really random. The beneficial ones certainly not. I think you adapt to the sun by going into the sun, not by genetic changes that make you go into the sun.

TomboyMom

*sigh*

Elijah: I am not a biologist. NEITHER ARE YOU. Many quite intelligent biologists have been studying this issue for about 200 years. Near the beginning of that period, many biologists believed that there was such a thing as Lamarckian inheritance. They studied the matter for a long time. They collected data. They did experiments. They observed nature. And they found that in fact acquired characteristics are not heritable. Other than a massive, government imposed mistake in Russia, resulting in mass starvation, it has been well known for over 100 years that Lamarckian inheritance doesn't work.

Now comes Elijah. Knows less about biology than I do. But he's just sure that all of the biology departments in all of the world's universities are wrong, and he's right. This kind of massive arrogance is insulting to the world's biologists.

If Lamarckism is right, and all of the world's biologists are wrong, why do you think they have failed to figure this out? Is it just because everyone is so much dumber than you? Or was there some kind of anti-Lamarck conspiracy, do you think?

But I wish you could meet my old friend, SuperSport. I'm sure you would get on well together.

Elijah

It does seem that everyone is much dumber then me yes. I have never been one to hold public opinion in much regard. People believe what they are told and nothing else. If there is a majority in the opinion then there is no questioning at all and anyone who doesn't agree is the dumb one.

Genetics is a fairly new field still developing that has been studied with Darwin tinted glasses so there is going to be a major bias in that direction.

If they had a better understanding of genetics back in the day then lamarkisim may be still around. Once people have a better understanding that genetic changes don't necessarily manifest themselves physically but doesn't mean there weren't changes genetically or epigenetically.

VoxRat

show_no_mercy

Well then you should test out your hypothesis. Stare into the sun until you "evolve" to be able to stare into the sun.

Mike PSS

Don't forget selection. Or selective pressures.

You seem to be mixing up the two here. Genetic mutations, like evolution, are undirected and random in the sense that there exists no target or end result that the mutation would like to achieve. The only limitation at the point of mutation is chemical and physical (can it occur in other words).

Only then does selection take over. If there is an environment in the sun where an organism can derive benefit then those organisms WITHIN THE POPULATION that have a mutation for sun protection or survivability will benefit most.

Please don't forget selection when your talking this through. Otherwise your leaving half the story untold.

Can you define selection in terms of Lamarckism?

Vicious Love

It's exactly like working out or studying, only heritable. I suspect it has something to do with in utero transmission of experience points.

Edit: Like when fish practice having more heart chambers. Or prairie shrubs practice being flammable.

Elijah

I don't see Lamarkisim having any real problems with natural selection. I don't see them as competing ideas. I see the "random gene mistakes" versus "environmental pressures creating corresponding gene changes" as the debate with Lamarck and Darwin.

Natural selection is what keeps life strong and stable it's not what pushes evolution forward. Changes in the environment and the lifestyles of the animals is what causes the changes.

If all the food runs out on the ground and an animal is forced into the trees to eat and survive then eventually after a few generations traits that correspond to tree climbing will slowly appear out of use, not out of random mutations plus natural selection.

RAFH

I wonder if intentional ignorance is an inheritable characteristic.

Vicious Love

Like when a flower makes the lifestyle choice of growing thorns, or a genetic algorithm feels it can best express itself through a particular output.

If all the food runs out on the ground, animals without tree-climbing genes die.

Edit: Unless they wait for poor tree-climbers to fall out of trees, I mean.