Wads4

Fall-out from the eruption of Santorini,-Nile delta Pollution? I heard that the job of the first-born was to open the granaries after the winter storage,--and they succombed to an inhaled fungal spore infection--sounds a bit contrived.

Chris Weimer

That's an understatement.

John Kesler

While it is true that the Exodus narrative mentions 10 plagues, Psalms 78 and 105 appear to preserve variant traditions, with the latter indeed mentioning seven plagues:

1. Darkness (v:28)
2. Waters to blood (v:29)
3. Frogs (v:30)
4. Flies and gnats (v:31)
5. Hail and lightning (vv:32-33)
6. Locusts (vv:34-35)
7. Death of the firstborn (v:36)

BrianJ

There seems to be a common misconception that 'first born' has to refer to a child for some reason, but this isn't the case.

The first born could quite easily be 30, 40, 50 or 60 years old (or any age for that matter), it doesn't need to be a child.

Malachi151

True, that is a good point. I think part of this comes from an association with the story about the killing of the Hebrew boys by the Pharaoh.

Larsguy47

You said the Exodus, not a mobile people living in tents deciding to leave clean camp sites for religious reasons and not building a couple of stone cities on the side out of boredom.

What we do have supporting the Exodus so far is just the historical. The "archaeological" evidence that might have existed from the time of Akhenaten likely was destroyed because Akhenaten's buildings and records were suppressed for the most part. The Amarna Letters just happened to have overlooked apparently. But speaking of the Amarna Letters, one letter to Akhenaten in the context of his father where he mentions hearing about the death and suggesting a preference to 10,000 of his own people or of the Egyptians dying rather than the king himself is highly consistent with the king dying along with many others. Often the common exaggeration is 10X as we find in many of the letters (i.e. hoping the love of Akhenaten is ten times that for his father, etc.). Further, the fact that the Egyptians greatly resented Akhenaten, or at least the religious priests of Amun, certainly suggests that they would not have allowed any kind of complimentary statements about the Jews to survive or even a direct reference to the ten plagues recorded by Akhenaten survive.

But I'm wondering if this was just a rather blank time "archaeologically" speaking anyway. Since we have the Amarna Letters which give us a very, very vivid story of what was going on in Canaan and farther north in Assyria during these times. I'm wondering if the survivign archaeology actually reflect responsively the history we have available?

In fact, I know it doesn't, since several cities mentioned in Egyptian records as well have not been proven to exist archaeologically or have been claimed not to have existed during the period that would have immediately followed the Exodus. So everything that happened doesn't survive archaeologically unless it is made out of stone or metal. Case in point is the city "Ai" that everybody is smart enough not to bring up anymore but used to be a focus of discussion. That city was immediately to the East of Bethel, apparently within less than a mile. But there is no evidence of a city there. Or at least they haven't found it. So apparently even some of the cities built with wood haven't survived archaeologically. Archaeologists must be doing something wrong or those cities were excavated and cleaned up in ancient times.

Some cities that do survive, though, like Jericho, reflect precisely the Bible's historical reference. Jericho was destroyed by Joshua and then left uninhabited for 400 years. The evidence from Jericho supports the city was abandoned after the LBIIA period (time of Akhenaten/Amenhotep III) for over 400 years.

But everything else is consistent with the Bible record that we can surmise. For instance the brickmaking by the time of Thuthmosis III and throughout the Amarna Period.

Someone told me there was one fesco found among those from Akhetetan (el-Amarna) that showed a doorway with blood splattered around it thought to relate to the Exodus, allegedly in a book I have but I haven't had time to look for that reference yet. So that might be some indirect proof from Akhenaten that survived in art.

Beyond that, archaeologists, not knowing enough about the customs of the Jews might be expecting or looking for too much or the wrong things in the wrong places.

But at least we know exactly when the Exodus and the fall of Jericho happened!

LG47

Larsguy47

Not true. They are still digging in the Middle East and what happened is becoming quite refined. You just want to "relax" and not worry they might find something incredibly supportive of the Biblical events, maybe?



LG47

Larsguy47

You don't know. You can't make that assessment unless you know the basis for that reference, which you don't. My point here is that that reference is the only extra-Biblical reference to when the Exodus occurred and it seems to be totally ignored while out of desperation they try and redate the Exodus in connection with some volanic eruption. It's ridiculous.

That's all archaeologists do! It's what anthropologists do. It's not an exact science. It requires speculation, interpretation and you have lots of scholarly debate and varying opinions. I don't mind criticisms of my views. But it has to be more than, "Oh, yeah, I see you didn't finish high school so I don't need to check out whether what you say is credible or not." Let the evidence speak for itself.

I have lots of books about Akhenaten; books on Akhenaten have to rival those of King Tut! But there are lots and lots of opinions in that arena too. Sigmund Freud even wrote a book about Moses and Monotheism (or via: amazon.co.uk). I think his sentiment was that Moses and Akhenaten were the same person or something like that.

OH LOOK! I actually have Redford's book! I went through looking for a quote and look what I found from a quote from Akhenaten in Redford's book, page 177:

"(Thou) creator of months and maker of days, and reckoner of HOURS!" Ha! The concept of the "hour" is very Egyptian and from this period. In the KTU 1.78 text, B++ appears with ++ normally meaning six or sixth, but because sixth didn't make sense in terms of the day of the month, obviously since this was the last day of the month (the day of the new moon), translators like Rohl proposed it meant "put to shame." But Ugarit was under Egyptian influence at this time and so this would have certainly been a reference to the HOUR of the eclipse if they had a clear concept of the hour. The 1375BCE eclipse, which is during the normal dating for the Amarna Period and the rule of Akhenaten did occur during the sixth hour, that is, between 5 and 6 a.m.! So thanks!!!

Here's something: (Page 141) "Undoubtedly it was at this same time that hatchetment were dispatched to range throughout the temples of the land to descrate the name "Amun" wherever it appeared on walls, steles, tombs, or objects d'art. Amun's congeners Mut, Osiris and others suffered too, but to a lesser extent. So widespread and thorough was this program of erasure, in fact, that today investigators can often date a piece as pre- or post-Amarna by examining the heiroglyphs for "Amun."

Great book! Thanks. It is worth a careful re-reading along with others in my collection!


Listen, I "quote" from sources as much as possible. My position is far less opinion. The reference in Manetho about Joseph being appointed vizier in the17th of Apophis is specific! That came from some place, maybe or maybe not from Manetho. But it tells us exactly who was ruling when the Exodus came. That's an improvement to trying to link the Exodus to a volanic eruption. David Rohl thinks the Amarna Period should be dated 300 years later than it conventionally is! So lots of people have ideas and share them. My views must stand on their own like any others.

So far you've dismissed nothing and proven nothing that I recall other than the lack of evidence that the Jews were just as messy as other nations, leaving non-biodegradable liter wherever they went.

:redface:

LG47

Hex

Hey ... That brings up something I've never heard anyone nicely justify.

The Pharoh is a first-born, right? How come he isn't offed by the Angel of Death?

Lars, any chance you've got a handy clip from the Armana latters for this?

Or anyone else?

Bueller? Bueller?

RAFH

Well, actually, a nice Jewish family were out at the beach having a picnic and sort of got stranded by the high tide along with the Egyptian biker gang, the Pharaohs, who were drinking and carrying on being obnoxious and then the tide went out and the Jewish family escaped and the bullies, having drunk too much, awoke just as the tide was coming in again and they and their bikes (which they called their "chariots" got swamped as they tried to follow.