Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 01-21-2012, 12:30 PM

Chresimos could be used as a personal name. There are papyri of a place named Chresimos in Egypt and this inscription in Palestine makes clear it could be a personal name:

http://books.google.com/books?id=s4N...esimos&f=false

also:

Another attests the presence of a man named Chresimos, who may be the same Marcus Ulpius Chresimos who appears in inscriptions from Mons Claudianus and Mons Porphyrites at the beginning of Hadrian's reign http://books.google.com/books?id=_Ky...esimos&f=false

stephan huller · 01-21-2012, 12:38 PM

Another interesting use of chreston and chresimos. Ajax being near death attacking Troy is described as such in Sophocles' play:

Quote:

And Tecmessa cries out "that this good and serviceable man (chresimos) should say things such as he would never have been able to utter before" (410- 41 1). Yet even as he considers ending his life, he considers doing something good and serviceable (chreston, 468), attacking Troy and fighting "alone with them alone" (467) as once, in his moment of glory, he fought Hector "alone with him alone" (1283). The hero of honor par excellence (time) will die in dishonor (atimia, 426, 440). The hero who has been the bulwark of the Achaeans, protecting them with his great shield, will be without the protective barrier of friends, apharktos philon (910). Man cannot live in so unsheltered a state.

http://books.google.com/books?id=VdD...esimos&f=false

This seems to me at least to be the most influential manner in which the sacrifice of Jesus might have been developed:

The term chrestos comes again with respect to Odysseus's burial of Ajax:

Quote:

Since only this acknowledgment would really amount to doing justice to Ajax, Odysseus answers Agamemnon concessively, "Whatever you do, you will at least be chrestos" (1369).

Here is a synopsis of the play:

Quote:

At the onset of the play, Ajax is enraged because Achilles' armor was awarded to Odysseus, rather than to him. He vows to kill the Greek leaders who disgraced him. Before he can enact his revenge, though, he is tricked by the goddess Athena into believing that the sheep and cattle that were taken by the Achaeans as spoil are the Greek leaders. He slaughters some of them, and takes the others back to his home to torture, including a ram which he believes to be his main rival, Odysseus.

Ajax realizes what he has done and is in agony over his actions. Ajax’s pain is not because of his wish to kill Agamemnon and Odysseus. He is extremely upset that Athena fooled him and is sure that the other Greek warriors are laughing at him. Ajax contemplates ending his life due to his shame. His wife and captive, Tecmessa, pleads for him not to leave her and her child unprotected. Ajax then gives his son, Eurysaces, his shield. Ajax leaves the house saying that he is going out to purify himself and bury the sword given to him by Hector. Teucer, Ajax’s brother, arrives in the Greek camp to taunting from his fellow soldiers. Calchas warns that Ajax should not be allowed to leave his tent until the end of the day or he will die. Teucer sends a messenger to Ajax’s campsite with word of Calchas’ prophesy. Tecmessa and soldiers try to track him down, but are too late. Ajax had indeed buried the sword, but has left the blade sticking out of the ground and has impaled himself upon it.

Sophocles lets us hear the speech Ajax gives immediately before his suicide (which, unlike in most Greek tragedies, where action and death are reported, is called for to take place onstage), in which he calls for vengeance against the sons of Atreus (Menelaus and Agamemnon) and the whole Greek army. Ajax also wishes for the first to find his body to be Teucer, so that he is not found by an enemy and his body left without a proper burial. Tecmessa is the first to discover Ajax impaled on his sword, with Teucer arriving shortly after. He orders that Eurysaces be brought to him so that he will be safe from Ajax’s foes. Menelaus appears on the scene and orders the body not to be moved.

The last part of the play revolves around the dispute over what to do with Ajax's body. Ajax's half brother Teucer intends on burying him despite the demands of Menelaus and Agamemnon that the corpse is not to be buried. Odysseus, although previously Ajax's enemy, steps in and persuades them to allow Ajax a proper funeral by pointing out that even one's enemies deserve respect in death, if they were noble. The play ends with Teucer making arrangements for the burial (which is to take place without Odysseus, out of respect for Ajax).

I have never read this play before but notice it is about suicide (the same theme as the gospel). I will have to Sophocles tonight. Here is the e-text http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/sophocles/ajax.htm

Here is the suicide speech which many consider to be among the best things ever written:

Quote:

[They all exit in various directions, leaving the stage empty. The scene now changes to a deserted part of the seashore. AJAX enters, carrying his sword, which he sets upright in the sand, with the blade sticking upward.]

AJAX
The sacrificial killer is in place,
so it will now cut most effectively.
If a man had time, he might reflect on this.
It is a gift from Hector, a warrior
who was a friend most hateful to me,
the one I looked on as my greatest foe.*
Then, this sword is firmly set in Trojan soil,
land of my enemy, freshly whetted 980
on the iron-eating sharpening stone. [820]
And I have fixed it in the ground with care,
so it will kill me quickly and be kind.
Thus, we are well prepared. So, O Zeus,
in this situation, be the first to help,
as is appropriate. I’m not asking you
to give me a grand prize, but for my sake
send a messenger to carry this bad news
to Teucer, so he may be the first
to raise me, once I’ve fallen on the sword 990
and covered it with fresh-spilt blood. Don’t let
the first to spot me be some enemy,
who’ll throw me out, exposed as carrion food [830]
for dogs and birds. I appeal to you, O Zeus.
Grant me this much. I also call on Hermes,
guide to the world below, to let me sleep
without convulsions, when by one quick leap
I break my bones apart on this sharp blade.
And I summon those immortal maidens
to my aid, those who always see all things 1000
of human suffering, the dread, far-striding Furies,
to witness how, in my wretchedness,
the sons of Atreus worked my destruction.
May they seize on them and destroy them, too,
with deaths as vile as their disgusting selves. [840]
Just as they see me killed by my own hand,
so let them perish, killed by their own kindred,
the children they love most. Come, you Furies,
you swift punishers, devour the army,
all of them, sparing no one. And you, Helios, 1010
whose chariot wheels climb that steep path to heaven,
when you look down over my father’s land,
pull back those reins of yours, which flash with gold,
then tell the story of my miseries,
my destiny, to my old father
and to the unhappy one who nursed me.
That poor lady, when she hears this news, [850]
will, I think, sing out a huge lamenting dirge
throughout the city. But for me to weep
is useless. It’s time to start the final act. 1020
O Death, Death, come now and watch in person.
Yet I’ll be seeing you on the other side,
and there we can converse. And so to you,
the radiant light of this bright shining day,
I make my final call, and to the Sun—
I’ll never see that chariot any more.
O light, O sacred land of Salamis,
my home, my father’s sturdy hearth, [860]
and glorious Athens, whose race was bred
related to my own—and you rivers, 1030
you streams, you plains of Troy, I call on you.
Farewell, you who have nurtured me—to you
Ajax now speaks his final words. The rest
I’ll say to those below in Hades.

[Ajax falls on his sword. Enter the CHORUS in two separate groups from two different directions. Each has a separate leader. They do not see Ajax’s body until Tecmessa finds it.] *

Iskander · 01-21-2012, 12:58 PM

The Saltire, the flag of Scotland

“Whilst the Saltire would have been used in Scotland from an early date, its first clearly established representation is on the Great Seal of the Guardians of Scotland (1286) with the motto, 'Andrew, be leader of your compatriots, the Scots'. 13th and 14th century Scottish episcopal seals show Andrew clearly tied to the Saltire - a representation for which the only know source is the Acts of Andrew”

DCHindley · 01-21-2012, 02:01 PM

In the Apology it is χιασμα ("a cross piece of wood" sort of like a brace or splint) and about the "son of God."

In Plato's (Timaeus 36b-c) it is "χεῖ" which appears to be a spelling for the Greek letter 'χ' (Chi), and the subject is how the "World Soul" literally "slapped together" the visible universe, creating two circles (one representing the rotation of the stars about the equator and another representing the planets rotating around the eccliptic) revolving about a center pivot point.

So, is Justin equating the "World Soul" with the "Son of God." Usually these folks equate the Son of God with the Logos, which in Plato is the "Reason" or "Mind" of God?

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timæus of Plato, where he says, He placed him crosswise in the universe, he borrowed in like manner from Moses;(First Apology, Chapter 60).

mountainman · 01-21-2012, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

WTF is 'Roman' supposed to mean? Chrismon is a Latin term derived from Greek.

Sorry the chi-rho coin and comment about "Chrismon" was a rush reply. I was buying tickets to a rock concert. For some reason my teenage daughters are keen to hear an American band in Sydney this week. I should have said the term "Chrismon" looks to be a Latin (not Roman) term and that the "Latinization" appears late. It seems to be a late Latin generalisation for all forms akin to the Greek chi-rho source - by a Latin cataloguer.

Quote:

The Acts of Andrew have Jesus and Andrew crucified in the shape of a chi:

The version at earlychristianwritings has this:

Quote:

7 At the gate of Nicomedia he met a dead man borne on a bier,
and his old father supported by slaves, hardly able to walk,
and his old mother with hair torn, bewailing.

'How has it happened ?' he asked.

'He was alone in his chamber and seven dogs rushed on him and killed him.'

Andrew sighed and said:

'This is an ambush of the demons I banished from Nicaea.

Why does Nicaea get mentioned like this in the Acts of Andrew?
Eusebius's himself is the earliest "witness to the appearance" of this book.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EUSEBIUS in Historia Ecclesiastica (Book 3, 25, 6-7)

"We have felt compelled to give this catalogue in order that we might be able to know both these works and those that are cited by the heretics under the name of the apostles, including, for instance, such books as the Gospels of Peter, of Thomas, of Matthias, or of any others besides them, and the Acts of Andrew and John and the other apostles, which no one belonging to the succession of ecclesiastical writers has deemed worthy of mention in his writings.

And further, the character of the style is at variance with apostolic usage, and both the thoughts and the purpose of the things that are related in them are so completely out of accord with true orthodoxy that they clearly show themselves to be the fictions of heretics. Wherefore they are not to be placed even among the rejected writings, but are all of them to be cast aside as absurd and impious."

DCHindley · 01-21-2012, 08:02 PM

Here are the relevant passages of Justin's 1st apology:

And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timaeus of Plato, where he says, "He placed him {crosswise} in the universe [lit. the all]," he borrowed in like manner from Moses;

Καὶ τὸ ἐν τῷ παρὰ Πλάτωνι Τιμαίῳ φυσιολογού μενον περὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ, ὅτε λέγει• Ἐχίασεν αὐτὸν ἐν τῷ παντί, παρὰ Μωυσέως λαβὼν ὁμοίως εἶπεν.(1)

According to Justin, Plato misunderstood Moses' account in Numbers (Num. xxi. 8) where

"it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, 'If ye look to this figure, and believe, ye shall be saved thereby.' And when this was done, it is recorded that the serpents died, and it is handed down that the people thus escaped death.

Which things Plato reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it was the figure of the cross, but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he said that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe."(4)

ἃ ἀναγνοὺς Πλάτων καὶ μὴ ἀκριβῶς ἐπιστάμενος, μηδὲ νοήσας τύπον εἶναι σταυροῦ ἀλλὰ χίασμα νοήσας, τὴν μετὰ τὸν πρῶτον θεὸν δύναμιν κεχιάσθαι ἐν τῷ παντὶ εἶπε.(Migne)

However, Plato's Timeaus has nothing to do with a brazen serpent on a cross, but is about the formation of the World Soul. It goes like this:

[36b] … Next he cleft the structure so formed lengthwise into two halves, and laying the two so as to meet in the centre in the shape of the letter X (Chi), [36c] he bent them into a circle and joined them, causing them to meet themselves and each other at a point opposite to that of their original contact : and he comprehended them in the motion that revolves uniformly on the same axis, and one of the circles he made exterior [the motion of the stars] and one interior [the motion of the planets along the ecliptic].(2)

[36b] ταύτην οὖν τὴν σύστασιν πᾶσαν διπλῆν κατὰ μῆκος σχίσας, μέσην πρὸς μέσην ἑκατέραν ἀλλήλαις οἷον χεῖ [the letter χ] προσβαλὼν κατέκαμψεν [36c] εἰς ἓν κύκλῳ, συνάψας αὑταῖς τε καὶ ἀλλήλαις ἐν τῷ καταντικρὺ τῆς προσβολῆς, καὶ τῇ κατὰ ταὐτὰ ἐν ταὐτῷ περιαγομένῃ κινήσει πέριξ αὐτὰς ἔλαβεν, καὶ τὸν μὲν ἔξω, τὸν δ᾽ ἐντὸς ἐποιεῖτο τῶν κύκλων.(1)

According to Justin, Plato misunderstood Moses' account in Numbers (Num. xxi. 8) where "it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, 'If ye look to this figure, and believe, ye shall be saved thereby.' And when this was done, it is recorded that the serpents died, and it is handed down that the people thus escaped death."

Whaaaat??

Next, to justify his assertion that the "χ" in Plato's passage about the World Soul is a misunderstanding of Moses's reference to a cross (stauros), he says

as to his speaking of a third, he did this because he read, as we said above, that which was spoken by Moses, "that the Spirit of God moved over the waters." For he gives the second place to the Logos which is with God, who he said was placed crosswise in the universe; and the third place to the Spirit who was said to be borne upon the water, saying, "And the third around the third. [Τὰ δὲ τρίτα περὶ τὸν τρίτον]"(4)

Well, there is no such passage as "the third around the third" in the Timaeus, although there is a place that speaks of the population of the universe with numbers, and it says:

And he began his dividing thus: first he took one portion from the whole; then he went on to take a portion double of this; and the third half as much again as the second and triple of the first; the fourth double of the second; the fifth three times the third; the sixth eight times the first, the seventh twenty-seven times the first.(3)

But I think he is referring to the following passage in section 36d-e of the Timaeus, where he speaks of "her movement in herself":

[36d] Now after that the framing of the soul [the second position besides God] was finished to the mind of him that framed her [the first position, the supreme God, the One], next he fashioned within her all that is bodily, [36e] and he drew them together and fitted them middle to middle. And from the midst even unto the ends of heaven she was woven in everywhere and encompassed it around from without, and having her movement in herself [the third position] she began a divine beginning of endless and reasonable life for ever and evermore.(3)

[36d] ἐπεὶ δὲ κατὰ νοῦν τῷ συνιστάντι πᾶσα ἡ τῆς ψυχῆς σύστασις ἐγεγένητο, μετὰ τοῦτο πᾶν τὸ σωματοειδὲς ἐντὸς [36e] αὐτῆς ἐτεκταίνετο καὶ μέσον μέσῃ συναγαγὼν προσήρμοττεν: ἡ δ᾽ ἐκ μέσου πρὸς τὸν ἔσχατον οὐρανὸν πάντῃ διαπλακεῖσα κύκλῳ τε αὐτὸν ἔξωθεν περικαλύψασα, αὐτὴ ἐν αὑτῇ στρεφομένη, θείαν ἀρχὴν ἤρξατο ἀπαύστου καὶ ἔμφρονος βίου πρὸς τὸν σύμπαντα χρόνον.
(1)

Poor Justin, he's like the John Huntsman of the early apologists, just not able to carry through intellectually.

DCH

1) Platonis Opera, ed. John Burnet. Oxford University Press. 1903.
2) Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 9 translated by W.R.M. Lamb. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1925.
3) The Timaeus of Plato, ed. R.D. Archer-Hind. London, MacMillan & Co, 1888.
4) Ante Nicene Fathers, ed. Donaldson & Roberts, American Edition ed. by A Cleveland Coxe. Buffalo, NY, The Christian Literature Publishing Co., vol 1, 1885.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timæus of Plato, where he says, He placed him crosswise in the universe, he borrowed in like manner from Moses;(First Apology, Chapter 60).

stephan huller · 01-21-2012, 08:43 PM

This is very useful David. Thank you. For what it is worth here is the LXX for Num 21:1 - 10

Quote:

And Arad the Chananitish king who dwelt by the wilderness, heard that Israel came by the way of Atharin; and he made war on Israel, and carried off some of them captives. And Israel vowed a vow to the Lord, and said, If thou wilt deliver this people into my power, I will devote it and its cities [to thee]. And the Lord hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered the Canaanite{gr.Chananite} into his power; and [Israel] devoted him and his cities, and they called the name of that place Anathema. And having departed from mount Or by the way [leading] to the Red Sea, they compassed the land of Edom, and the people lost courage by the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses, saying, Why is this? Hast thou brought us ought of Egypt to slay us in the wilderness? for there is not bread nor water; and our soul loathes this light bread. And the Lord sent among the people deadly serpents, and they bit the people, and much people of the children of Israel died. And the people came to Moses and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee: pray therefore to the Lord, and let him take away the serpent from us. And Moses prayed to the Lord for the people; and the Lord said to Moses, Make thee a serpent (ὄφις), and put it on a sign (σημείου); and it shall come to pass that whenever a serpent shall bite a man, every one [so] bitten that looks upon it shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass (ὄφιν χαλκοῦν), and put it upon a sign (σημείου) and it came to pass that whenever a serpent bit a man, and he looked on the brazen serpent, he lived. And the children of Israel departed, and encamped in Oboth.

stephan huller · 01-21-2012, 08:50 PM

Philo Allegorical Interpretation II:

Quote:

Since, therefore, it was necessary for both these things to come together for the due comprehension of these objects, what was it which brought them together except a third something which acted as a bond between them, the two first representing love and desire, and pleasure not obtaining the dominion and mastery, which pleasure Moses here speaks of symbolically, under the emblem of the serpent. (73) God, who created all the animals on the earth, arranged this order very admirably, for he placed the mind first, that is to say, man, for the mind is the most important part in man; then outward sense, that is the woman; and then proceeding in regular order he came to the third, pleasure. But the powers of these three, and their ages, are different only in the night, for in point of time they are equal; for the soul brings forward everything at the same moment with itself: but some things it brings forward in their actuality, and others in their power of existing, even if they have not yet arrived at the end. (74) And pleasure has been represented under the form of the serpent, for this reason, as the motion of the serpent is full of many windings and varied, so also is the motion of pleasure. At first it folds itself round a man in five ways, for the pleasures consist both in seeing, and in hearing, and in taste, and in smell, and in touch. But the most vehement and intense are those which arise from connection with woman, through which the generation of similar beings is appointed by nature to be effected. (75) And yet this is not the only reason why we say that pleasure is various in appearance, namely, because it folds itself around all the divisions of the irrational part of the soul, but because it also folds itself with many windings around each separate part. For instance, the pleasures derived from sight are various, there is all the pleasure which arises from the contemplation of pictures or statues; and all other works which are made by art delight the sight. So also do the different stages through which plants go while budding and flowering and bearing fruit; and likewise the diversified beauty of the different animals. In the same manner the flute gives pleasure to the sense of hearing, as does the harp, and every kind of instrument, and the harmonious voices of the irrational animals, of swallows, of nightingales; and likewise the melody of such rational beings as nature has made musical, the tuneful voice of the harp-players, and of those who represent comedy, or tragedy, or any other historionic performance.

XIX. (76) Why need we enlarge on the pleasures of the belly? For we may almost say that there are as may varieties of pleasure as there are of gentle flavours which are presented to the belly, and which excite the outward sense. Was it not then, with great propriety that pleasure, which is derived form many varied sources, was presented to an animal endowed with varied faculties? (77) On this account, too, that part in us which is analogous to the people, and which acts the part of a multitude, when it seeks "the houses in Egypt,"{22}{#nu 21:5.} that is to say, in its corporeal habitation, becomes entangled in pleasures which bring on death; not that death which is a separation of soul and body, but that which is the destruction of the soul by vice. For Moses says, "And the Lord God sent among the people deadly serpents, and they bit the people, and a great multitude of the children of Israel Died."{23}{#nu 21:6.} For in real truth there is nothing which so much bringeth death upon the soul as an immoderate indulgence in pleasures. (78) And that which perishes is not the dominant portion in us but the subject one, that which acts the part of the multitude; and it receives death up to this point, namely, until it turns to repentance, and confesses its sin, for the Israelites, coming to Moses, say, "We have sinned in that we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray, therefore, for us to the Lord, and let him take away the serpents from us." It is well put here, not we have sinned because we have spoken against the Lord, but because we were inclined to sin we have spoken against the Lord, for when the mind sins and departs from virtue, it blames divine things, imputing its own sins to God.

XX. (79) How, then, can there be any remedy for this evil? When another serpent is created, the enemy of the serpent which came to Eve, namely, the word of temperance: for temperance is opposite to pleasure, which is a varied evil, being a varied virtue, and one ready to repel its enemy pleasure. Accordingly, God commands Moses to make the serpent according to temperance; and he says, "Make thyself a serpent, and set it up for a sign." Do you see that Moses makes this serpent for no one else but for himself? for God commands him, "Make it for thyself," in order that you may know that temperance is not the gift of every one, but only of that man who loves God. (80) And we must consider why Moses makes a brazen serpent, when no command was given to him respecting the material of which it was to be formed. May it not have been for this reason? In the first place, the graces of God are immaterial, being themselves only ideas, and destitute of any distinctive quality; but the graces of mortal men are only beheld in connection with matter. In the second place, not only does Moses love the incorporeal virtues, but our own souls, not being able to put off their bodies, do likewise aim at corporeal virtue, (81) and reason, in accordance with temperance, is likened to the strong and solid substance of brass, inasmuch as it is form and not easily cut through. And perhaps brass may also have been selected inasmuch as temperance in the man who loves God is a most honourable thing, and like gold; though it has only a secondary place in a man who has received wisdom and improved in it. "And whomsoever the one serpent bites, if he looks upon the brazen serpent shall live:" in which Moses speaks truly, for if the mind that has been bitten by pleasure, that is by the serpent which was sent to Eve, shall have strength to behold the beauty of temperance, that is to say, the serpent made by Moses in a manner affecting the soul, and to behold God himself through the medium of the serpent, it shall live. Only let it see and contemplate it intellectually.

stephan huller · 01-21-2012, 08:56 PM

This idea did not come from Philo. My only guess is that Justin took the LXX phrase ἐν σημείῳ to mean a chi or 'cross.' But why? Here is the Liddell entry for σημεῖον

, to/, Ion. σημήϊον , Dor. σα_μήϊον IG12(3).452 (Thera, iv B.C.), σα_μεῖον IPE12.352.25 (Chersonesus, ii B.C.), IG5(1).1390.16 (Andania, i B.C.), σα_μᾶον CIG5168 (Cyrene):—= σῆμα in all senses, and more common in Prose, but never in Hom. or Hes.:
A. mark by which a thing is known, Hdt.2.38; “σημεῖα τῶν δεδικασμένων . ., σημεῖα πάντων ὧν ἔπραξαν” Pl.R.614c; sign of the future, τυραννίδος ς. A.Ag.1355; “ς. λαβεῖν ἔκ τινος” E.Hipp.514; trace, track, “σημεῖα δ᾽ οὔτε θηρὸς οὔτε του κυνῶν . . ἐξεφαίνετο” S.Ant.257, cf. El.886; “τῆς καταβάσεως” X.An.6.2.2; of a cork on a buoy, Paus.8.12.1.
b. Dor., tomb, IG12(3).452 (iv B.C.), CIGl.c.
2. sign from the gods, omen, S.OC94; “τὰ ἀπὸ τῶν θεῶν ς. γενόμενα” Antipho 5.81, cf. Pl.Phdr. 244c, Ap.40b, X.Cyr.1.6.1; wonder, portent, LXX Ex.4.8, al.; “ς. καὶ τέρατα” Plb.3.112.8, Ev.Matt.24.24, Ev.Jo.4.48, cf. IPEl.c., D.S.17.114; “φόβηθρα καὶ ς. ἀπ᾽ οὐρανοῦ” Ev.Luc.21.11; esp. of the constellations, regarded as signs, “δύεται σημεῖα” E.Rh.529 (lyr.), cf. Ion 1157.
3. sign or signal to do a thing, made by flags, ἀνέδεξε σημήϊον τοῖσι ἄλλοισι ἀνάγεσθαι he made signal for the rest to put to sea, Hdt.7.128; signal for battle, τὰ ς. ἤρθη, κατεσπάσθη, Th.1.49,63, etc.; καθαιρεῖν τὸ ς. to take it down, strike the flag, as a sign of dissolving an assembly, And.1.36; τὸ τῆς ἐκκλησίας ς. Ar.Th.278; ὕστερος ἐλθεῖν τοῦ ς. Id.V.690: generally, signal, “ς. ὑποδηλῶσαί τινι ὅτι . . ” Id.Th.1011; “τὰ ς. αὐτοῖς ἤρθη” Th.4.42; τὸ ς. τοῦ πυρός, ὡς εἴρητο, ἀνέσχον ib.111; signal to commence work, [“ἡ] τοῦ σημείου ἄρσις” Ath.Mitt.35.403 (Pergam.); σημείῳ ἀβαστάκτῳ, σημείοις ἀβαστάκτοις with unremoved signal（s), of gymnasia, i.e. never closed, IGRom.4.446 (ibid.), Abh.Berl.Akad.1932(5).44(ibid., ii A.D.).
4. standard or flag, on the admiral's ship, Hdt.8.92; on the general's tent, X.Cyr.8.5.13; ἔξω τῶν ς. out of the lines, ib.8.3.19.
b. body of troops under one standard or flag, PAmh.2.39.2 (ii B.C.); cf. “σημεία” 1.2.
5. landmark, boundary, limit, ἔξω τῶν ς. τοῦ ὑμετέρου ἐμπορίου out of the limits of your commercial port, D.35.28; of milestones, Plu.CG7, Hdn.2.13.9.
6. device upon a shield, Hdt.1.171, E.Ph.1114; upon ships, figure-head, Ar.Ra.933, Th.6.31, E.IA255 (lyr.).
7. signet on ring, etc., Ar.Eq.952, V.585, Pl.Tht.191d, al., X.HG5.1.30, D.42.2, PRev.Laws 26.5 (iii B.C.); figure, image, “Διὸς κτησίου” Anticl.13; badge, “τρίαιναν ς. θεοῦ” A.Supp.218: pl., written characters, “γράψαι σημήϊα . . φωνῆς” IG14.1549 (Rome).
b. pl. (Dor.) σαμεῖα, stripes, ib.5(1).1390.16 (Andania, i B.C.); clavi: σημεῖα, Gloss.
8. watchword, war-cry, Plb.5.69.8; “ἀπὸ ς. ἑνὸς ἐπιστρέφειν τὰς ναῦς” Th.2.90, cf.X.HG6.2.28.
9. birthmark or distinguishing feature, Wilcken Chr.76.14 (ii A.D.), Sammelb.15.27 (ii A.D.), etc.
II. sign, token, indication of anything that is or is to be, S.OT1059, E.Ph.1332; “ς. φαίνεις ἐσθλὸς . . γεγώς” S.El.24, cf. OT710; “τέχνης ς. τῆς ἐμῆς” Id.Ant.998; so later “τὰ ς. τῶν καιρῶν” Ev.Matt.16.3, etc.
2. in reasoning, a sign or proof, Ar.Nu.369, Th.1.6,10, And. 2.25, etc.; “τούτων ὑμῖν σημεῖα δείξω” Aeschin.2.103, cf. 3.46; “τάδε τὰ ς. ὡς . . ” X.Ages.1.5; “ς. εἰ . . ” Pl.Grg.520e; ὅτι ἀγαθὸς ἦν . ., τοῦτο μέγιστον ς. Id.Min.321b; τὸ μὴ ἐκδυθῆναι οὐδὲν ς. ἐστι is no proof to the contrary, Antipho 2.2.5; also, instance, example, Hp.VM 20; σημεῖον δέ: to introduce an argument, D.21.149, Isoc.4.86,107, etc.
3. in the Logic of Arist., a sign used as a probable argument in proof of a conclusion, opp. τεκμήριον (a demonstrative or certain proof), APr.70a11, SE167b9, Rh.1357a33.
b. in Stoic and Epicurean philos., sign as observable basis of inference to the unobserved or unobservable, Epicur.Ep.2p.43U., Phld.Sign.27, al., S.E.M.8.142, al.; περὶ σημείων (dub. sens.), title of work by Zeno, Stoic.1.14.
4. Medic., symptom, Hp.Morb.3.6, 15, Aret.SD1.9, Gal.1.313, 18(2).306.
b. = Lat. lenticula, a kind of skin-eruption, Cels.6.5.1.
5. pl., shorthand symbols, Plu.Cat.Mi.23, Gal. Libr.Propr.1, POxy.724.3 (ii A.D.), Lib.Or.42.25.
6. critical mark, Heph.Poëm.p.73C., D.L.3.65.
III. = στιγμή, mathematical point, Arist.APo.76b5, Ph.240b3, Euc.Def.1, al.; also ς. (with or without χρόνου) point of time, instant, Arist.Cael.283a11, Ph.262b2sq.
2. in Prosody and Music, unit of time, Aristid.Quint.1.14, Longin.Proll. Heph.5.

stephan huller · 01-21-2012, 09:04 PM

It is worth noting that praying with outstretched arms was also regarded as a "type of a cross" (typos staurou; Justin Martyr Apol 1.55)

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01-21-2012, 12:30 PM	#21
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Chresimos could be used as a personal name. There are papyri of a place named Chresimos in Egypt and this inscription in Palestine makes clear it could be a personal name: http://books.google.com/books?id=s4N...esimos&f=false also: Another attests the presence of a man named Chresimos, who may be the same Marcus Ulpius Chresimos who appears in inscriptions from Mons Claudianus and Mons Porphyrites at the beginning of Hadrian's reign http://books.google.com/books?id=_Ky...esimos&f=false

01-21-2012, 12:58 PM	#23
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	The Saltire, the flag of Scotland “Whilst the Saltire would have been used in Scotland from an early date, its first clearly established representation is on the Great Seal of the Guardians of Scotland (1286) with the motto, 'Andrew, be leader of your compatriots, the Scots'. 13th and 14th century Scottish episcopal seals show Andrew clearly tied to the Saltire - a representation for which the only know source is the Acts of Andrew”

01-21-2012, 08:56 PM	#29
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	This idea did not come from Philo. My only guess is that Justin took the LXX phrase ἐν σημείῳ to mean a chi or 'cross.' But why? Here is the Liddell entry for σημεῖον , to/, Ion. σημήϊον , Dor. σα_μήϊον IG12(3).452 (Thera, iv B.C.), σα_μεῖον IPE12.352.25 (Chersonesus, ii B.C.), IG5(1).1390.16 (Andania, i B.C.), σα_μᾶον CIG5168 (Cyrene):—= σῆμα in all senses, and more common in Prose, but never in Hom. or Hes.: A. mark by which a thing is known, Hdt.2.38; “σημεῖα τῶν δεδικασμένων . ., σημεῖα πάντων ὧν ἔπραξαν” Pl.R.614c; sign of the future, τυραννίδος ς. A.Ag.1355; “ς. λαβεῖν ἔκ τινος” E.Hipp.514; trace, track, “σημεῖα δ᾽ οὔτε θηρὸς οὔτε του κυνῶν . . ἐξεφαίνετο” S.Ant.257, cf. El.886; “τῆς καταβάσεως” X.An.6.2.2; of a cork on a buoy, Paus.8.12.1. b. Dor., tomb, IG12(3).452 (iv B.C.), CIGl.c. 2. sign from the gods, omen, S.OC94; “τὰ ἀπὸ τῶν θεῶν ς. γενόμενα” Antipho 5.81, cf. Pl.Phdr. 244c, Ap.40b, X.Cyr.1.6.1; wonder, portent, LXX Ex.4.8, al.; “ς. καὶ τέρατα” Plb.3.112.8, Ev.Matt.24.24, Ev.Jo.4.48, cf. IPEl.c., D.S.17.114; “φόβηθρα καὶ ς. ἀπ᾽ οὐρανοῦ” Ev.Luc.21.11; esp. of the constellations, regarded as signs, “δύεται σημεῖα” E.Rh.529 (lyr.), cf. Ion 1157. 3. sign or signal to do a thing, made by flags, ἀνέδεξε σημήϊον τοῖσι ἄλλοισι ἀνάγεσθαι he made signal for the rest to put to sea, Hdt.7.128; signal for battle, τὰ ς. ἤρθη, κατεσπάσθη, Th.1.49,63, etc.; καθαιρεῖν τὸ ς. to take it down, strike the flag, as a sign of dissolving an assembly, And.1.36; τὸ τῆς ἐκκλησίας ς. Ar.Th.278; ὕστερος ἐλθεῖν τοῦ ς. Id.V.690: generally, signal, “ς. ὑποδηλῶσαί τινι ὅτι . . ” Id.Th.1011; “τὰ ς. αὐτοῖς ἤρθη” Th.4.42; τὸ ς. τοῦ πυρός, ὡς εἴρητο, ἀνέσχον ib.111; signal to commence work, [“ἡ] τοῦ σημείου ἄρσις” Ath.Mitt.35.403 (Pergam.); σημείῳ ἀβαστάκτῳ, σημείοις ἀβαστάκτοις with unremoved signal（s), of gymnasia, i.e. never closed, IGRom.4.446 (ibid.), Abh.Berl.Akad.1932(5).44(ibid., ii A.D.). 4. standard or flag, on the admiral's ship, Hdt.8.92; on the general's tent, X.Cyr.8.5.13; ἔξω τῶν ς. out of the lines, ib.8.3.19. b. body of troops under one standard or flag, PAmh.2.39.2 (ii B.C.); cf. “σημεία” 1.2. 5. landmark, boundary, limit, ἔξω τῶν ς. τοῦ ὑμετέρου ἐμπορίου out of the limits of your commercial port, D.35.28; of milestones, Plu.CG7, Hdn.2.13.9. 6. device upon a shield, Hdt.1.171, E.Ph.1114; upon ships, figure-head, Ar.Ra.933, Th.6.31, E.IA255 (lyr.). 7. signet on ring, etc., Ar.Eq.952, V.585, Pl.Tht.191d, al., X.HG5.1.30, D.42.2, PRev.Laws 26.5 (iii B.C.); figure, image, “Διὸς κτησίου” Anticl.13; badge, “τρίαιναν ς. θεοῦ” A.Supp.218: pl., written characters, “γράψαι σημήϊα . . φωνῆς” IG14.1549 (Rome). b. pl. (Dor.) σαμεῖα, stripes, ib.5(1).1390.16 (Andania, i B.C.); clavi: σημεῖα, Gloss. 8. watchword, war-cry, Plb.5.69.8; “ἀπὸ ς. ἑνὸς ἐπιστρέφειν τὰς ναῦς” Th.2.90, cf.X.HG6.2.28. 9. birthmark or distinguishing feature, Wilcken Chr.76.14 (ii A.D.), Sammelb.15.27 (ii A.D.), etc. II. sign, token, indication of anything that is or is to be, S.OT1059, E.Ph.1332; “ς. φαίνεις ἐσθλὸς . . γεγώς” S.El.24, cf. OT710; “τέχνης ς. τῆς ἐμῆς” Id.Ant.998; so later “τὰ ς. τῶν καιρῶν” Ev.Matt.16.3, etc. 2. in reasoning, a sign or proof, Ar.Nu.369, Th.1.6,10, And. 2.25, etc.; “τούτων ὑμῖν σημεῖα δείξω” Aeschin.2.103, cf. 3.46; “τάδε τὰ ς. ὡς . . ” X.Ages.1.5; “ς. εἰ . . ” Pl.Grg.520e; ὅτι ἀγαθὸς ἦν . ., τοῦτο μέγιστον ς. Id.Min.321b; τὸ μὴ ἐκδυθῆναι οὐδὲν ς. ἐστι is no proof to the contrary, Antipho 2.2.5; also, instance, example, Hp.VM 20; σημεῖον δέ: to introduce an argument, D.21.149, Isoc.4.86,107, etc. 3. in the Logic of Arist., a sign used as a probable argument in proof of a conclusion, opp. τεκμήριον (a demonstrative or certain proof), APr.70a11, SE167b9, Rh.1357a33. b. in Stoic and Epicurean philos., sign as observable basis of inference to the unobserved or unobservable, Epicur.Ep.2p.43U., Phld.Sign.27, al., S.E.M.8.142, al.; περὶ σημείων (dub. sens.), title of work by Zeno, Stoic.1.14. 4. Medic., symptom, Hp.Morb.3.6, 15, Aret.SD1.9, Gal.1.313, 18(2).306. b. = Lat. lenticula, a kind of skin-eruption, Cels.6.5.1. 5. pl., shorthand symbols, Plu.Cat.Mi.23, Gal. Libr.Propr.1, POxy.724.3 (ii A.D.), Lib.Or.42.25. 6. critical mark, Heph.Poëm.p.73C., D.L.3.65. III. = στιγμή, mathematical point, Arist.APo.76b5, Ph.240b3, Euc.Def.1, al.; also ς. (with or without χρόνου) point of time, instant, Arist.Cael.283a11, Ph.262b2sq. 2. in Prosody and Music, unit of time, Aristid.Quint.1.14, Longin.Proll. Heph.5.

01-21-2012, 09:04 PM	#30
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	It is worth noting that praying with outstretched arms was also regarded as a "type of a cross" (typos staurou; Justin Martyr Apol 1.55)

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