Hopeful Monsters

It's all in the mind HelenM

all in the mind

Darth Dane

TruthIsTold:

The tibetans say that everything is created of "Mind" matter.

Thus everything is in our minds







DD - Love & Laughter

HelenM

Perhaps they were quite similar, but it seems that there was no conversion accompanying yours. Which makes the entirety of your situation quite different.

Well, yeah, been there, done that...

But not all conversions are manic episodes. Most people who've been converted couldn't be legitimately diagnosed as having had a manic episode. Even the ones with dramatic conversions.

And evidently not all manic episodes include conversions since yours didn't.

I think it's very unlikely that lack of enthusiasm was the reason he didn't immediately call the chapel. Doing that would take some people a lot of courage. They'd have to psyche themselves up for it. Maybe he's not the type to go around telling everyone about his conversion. That's a matter of personality and outgoing-ness as well as how much it affects a person, imo.

In a post he made later in the thread he (?) seemed to be saying he was referring to the accumulated body of doctrines and beliefs that those who've been Christians a while often have - his question seemed to be, how do they get there from simply "I believe in God"? Perhaps he's asking several questions on this thread.

I don't think we can know that just because we read about him having one very emotional day. I think it would be more abnormal to never have a day like that than to have one at least once!

Yes but as I said earlier, there's no reason to think someone with no other symptoms implying mental illness has had a manic episode just because they have an emotionally intense conversion.

When you were admitted to the hospital they determined you were ill, didn't they? They didn't admit you just because you were happy! I'm sure you said or did some things indicative of a mental illness episode acute enough to warrant hospitalization. (I know I did). Most people who have just been converted do not do those things or say those things that cause them to be diagnosed with mental illness and admitted to the hospital.

I understand that that explanation satisfies you, although, since your manic episode was not a conversion, you don't have first-hand experience of one...

Helen

HelenM

Your asserting it is doesn't make it true. Did you read that thread on this forum asking why 'fundies' think that asserting something makes it true? I guess it's not just 'fundies' who do that...

Helen

excreationist

Well my "conversion" wasn't to a well-known religion....
Here is some information about it:
http://mindprod.com/livinglove.html
http://www.livinglove.org/
It involves a lot of principles and its claims are quite extraordinary. It claims that you can learn to become happy ALL THE TIME....
It talks about 7 "centers of consciousness":
http://www.livinglove.org/7centers.html
The lower 3 ones are ones that people normally have - that lead to negative emotions like jealousy and frustration.
By believing in the books (and going on and off zoloft [for my previous depression], which I think helped speed up my behavioural change) I felt myself go up through the "centers of consciousness" described in the book.
At certain times in my manic episode I felt at the 2 highest stages described in those books. (see previous link)
I was still a materialist but I also believed that the books had a lot of truth in them, even though others didn't think it was possible to be happy all the time. I told virtually everyone about how the books seemed to be working so well - even a girl I was sitting next to at a bus stop! She was in a school uniform and probably 13 or 15 and I was about 21. I think I even wrote down on a piece of paper what the books are called and gave it to her. When I first came to the infidels boards I was also promoting the books. So I'd consider that I was going through a "conversion"... though after I was put on heaps of medication I became apathetic about things and strayed away from those new beliefs...

Of course.

I agree.

Ok.

I didn't say that all manic episodes involved conversions! My point is that some abnormal emotional thing could be happening, that has a materialistic/psychological basis. If I read books on the subject I think I would be able to be more convincing.

To "shout at the top of their lungs" also takes courage... I'm talking about conversions where the person has courage. (I had huge amounts of courage... I went around talking to people on the street and asked the police if they knew where the criminals hung out lots of times, and I'd lie where-ever I wanted and eat left-overs in restaurants, and talk to strangers a lot, etc)

Then your example doesn't really apply to what I was talking about earlier... ("telling everyone" = "shouting at the top of your lungs")

Well up until my little manic episode, I was really quiet and withdrawn all my life. I avoided going to the "cool" parties I was invited to, and instead went to small quiet parties (but left if it got too noisy). I ran away from lots of social things including discos that I had gotten all dressed up for - it just overwhelmed me... (I've only danced in about 4 discos, and all of them were before I was 15 years old - they were school discos that were pretty compulsory)

I think that was a different part... I saw the focus as being on the enthusiasm and conviction and not the extensive knowledge of their religion.

So then those emotions aren't that miraculous? My theory is that he was having those emotions and linked them to his recent search for God. Then there was that kind of voice that talked to him... if it was a very vivid voice then my theory would be that it was an auditory hallucination. If it wasn't vivid then maybe he was reminded about his search for God and he subconsciously thought that would be God's message for him.

Maybe not... it was just an idea. There could be other things happening such as TruthIsTold's link about seizures.

My behaviour wasn't normal for me, but I can justify why I did things even now. I didn't know that the police were considering taking me to the hospital. If I realized that, I would have stopped talking to them so much. I mean if they said "if you keep acting like that, we're taking you to the hospital, and we're serious" then I'd leave them alone and maybe go home. When they took me to hospital I expected to only just have a check-up and stay overnight... BTW, I didn't have racing thoughts at all (which manic people are supposed to have). I followed the books and had a very calm, virtually silent mind. I just did things intuitively. I wanted to help others be like me - to be kind of "enlightened" like I was. (I was very open to change and criticism though)

If I followed the books properly, I think I wouldn't have been admitted into hospital. The books talk about us playing out roles in the game of life. It says you're supposed to play by the rules. I thought the book was too conservative and I'd make the rules. The book says that when you're happy a lot, people will ask you where that happiness came from. They didn't seem to ask... so I just told them anyway...
There were a lot of strong Christians in the mental hospital. Most had some kind of schizophrenia I think... (maybe they heard voices of angels or something) Anyway, I agree that most new converts aren't mentally ill. But perhaps some of the extreme cases are. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is just my current opinion.

As I said, I think it could be considered a conversion. I had a whole new world-view that I was obsessing over. (I was also obsessing over heaps of other things too, though my mind was slow and mostly silent)

HelenM

Ok, thanks for the reply, excreationist. You're right that the man I mentioned wasn't out there immediately telling everyone about his conversion. It's not the timeframe that I disagreed with in your posts about someone going out and telling others, so much as your implying that they wouldn't do it until they were more sure/had read more. I don't think those would be primary reasons for not immediately saying anything - as I mentioned before to some extent, I think it would have more to do with shyness and/or knowing that people wouldn't believe you, which means it requires courage to tell them. You spoke of being much more outgoing when you were manic - I recognize that state of reduced inhibition but I don't think that would accompany a change in belief in someone who wasn't mentally ill.

Thanks for explaining that you did have a change in belief during your 'episode' (or whatever you prefer to call it). That doesn't surprise me since I know what it's like to have all those 'revelations'. I would expect manic people to have revelations or changes of viewpoint, most of which don't persist once the episode is long gone, as yours evidently didn't. But I still don't think that most people who change beliefs change them because of mental illness.

Anyway, in your most recent post, were you implying you don't think you really were manic? Or were you simply saying you didn't have racing thoughts (I did - oh boy, did I...) and that had you behaved differently you think you wouldn' t have been hospitalized? The thing is, with mania, other people can tell - it's not just what you do but it's the way you do it. It's hopeless thinking you can get away with it (in my experience, anyway)

Helen

JHamblin

Yes, I am "he", by the way. Excreationist is closer to what I was getting at.

Basically, I can understand (somewhat) the process of going from lack of belief (or uncertainty of belief) to "I feel there is a god-figure out there somewhere" or "these christians seem to get a lot of joy out of their beliefs, maybe I'll try it."

What I don't understand is how a previously unaffiliated person would go from such "touchy-feely" generic beliefs to something like, say, young earth creationism. Or belief that the bible is word for word 100% accurate. Some kind of very specific belief that goes against mainstream (secular) wisdom. It doesn't seem (to me) that such beliefs come as part of the initial conversion process. So when (and how) do they come?

JH

Laci

I am a Catholic. And I'm glad I was raised with a religion. I even had my children baptized etc. And I'm not a church goer. But there have been times when I was more vulnerable to go towards other religions. For me it was the times when I was sick. I actually went to a non-denominational church where I was taught that Jesus was my friend and I could speak to him anytime and the music was moving. I liked that concept alot. It was what I needed from a religion at the time. However, I didn't become a member of that church. I wouldn't. They tried to get us newbies baptized and most did. But I'd already had my basic religion.

But I don't know how people can go from believing in a God to totally not. But I've heard discussions against God on another forum and they pretty much have come up with every answer in the book as to why there isn't a God. Mainly it's the "imaginery" being stuff. So I think if heard over and over again, it becomes convincing.
laci

Mageth

But I don't know how people can go from believing in a God to totally not.

And yet, many do, as I did.

But I've heard discussions against God on another forum and they pretty much have come up with every answer in the book as to why there isn't a God.

The main thing for me is that I've never heard a convincing answer as to why there is a god. The burden of proof is on those that make the positive claim (that God exists).

Mainly it's the "imaginery" being stuff. So I think if heard over and over again, it becomes convincing.

That sword cuts both ways.

JHamblin

I don't understand the connection between "I liked that concept" and "I think that concept is the way the universe actually works." I admit that most of my favorite classical music is religious in nature, and I like some of the sentiments expressed in the words. (For example, I think the text of Brahms requiem is especially beautiful.) But I do not in any way think that this text reflects truth.
I look at it in a mathematical way (being a mathematician, this is not hard for me): in order to prove something true, you need a proof or argument. In order to prove something false, you need only provide evidence to the contrary (or a "counterexample"). To me, the lack of a convincing argument proving god's (or gods') existence combined with the large amount of arbitrary suffering in the world (much of it due to the actions of theists) is enough to convince me that there are no gods.

JH