Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bacht · 10-08-2008, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Is it reasonable to separate the origins of Christianity from its later development? If the first believers were Jewish Torah followers, can we not look at pagan and gnostic influence after the 1st C?

It is easy to document pagan influences on Christianity after the 3rd century - Protestants do this all the time as part of their polemic against the Catholic Church.

The more difficult question is that of origins. We don't actually know if the first believers were Jewish Torah followers, or if this is a later anti-Marcionite invention. We don't know if there were actually any Christians in the first century, or if second century Christians invented that history for their movement.

We don't know for sure if there was a Jewish rabbi named Jesus who was crucified, and whose followers thought that he rose from the dead - or if this was a story inspired by a melding of Jewish and pagan themes.

I hope that Richard Carrier's forthcoming book will shed some light on this.

Like the proverbial onion eh? Or chasing sub-atomic particles, there always seems to be another level...

andrewcriddle · 10-08-2008, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guenevere

(The story of the Egyptian god Horus, among countless others from all different cultures, is identical to Jesus's story; born of a virgin, son of god, murdered then resurrected, healed people, etc...)

There was an interesting discussion here Resurrection of Horus about whether Horus died and was resurrected. It seems not to be true.

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 10-08-2008, 01:01 PM

The people who claim that Horus was born of a "virgin" and was "resurrected" have a very metaphorical interpretation of those terms. They are looking at broad religious themes, not picky little details.

Manjushri · 10-08-2008, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guenevere

(The story of the Egyptian god Horus, among countless others from all different cultures, is identical to Jesus's story; born of a virgin, son of god, murdered then resurrected, healed people, etc...)

Actually Horus is not born of a virgin. Isis conceived Horus by having intercourse with the corpse of her late husband Osiris. Horus battles his uncle Set for the throne of Egypt in a drawn-out back and forth fight, but he is never killed. Horus undergoes no resurrection like Jesus. His father Osiris is murdered by Set, Osiris becomes the god of the afterworld and rules there, but he is not resurrected back to life on this earth.

vid · 10-08-2008, 02:19 PM

I think there are clear pagan roots in LATER christianity, unlike "pagan-mythicists" (opposed to Jewish-mythicists like Malachi151 here), who claim that Jesus story was copied from pagans SINCE BEGINNING. My view is that early christianity didn't need to borrow much from pagans... maybe as much as Philo did, before christianity: bad material world vs. good spiritual world, hell, souls, etc... But later, they adopted same way of portraying, they adopted sun-worship, they adopted pagan deities as "saints", they adopted traditions of "worship of Saturn" as Christmas, etc. etc.

I was terrified by movies like Zeitgeist 1/3, claiming heavy load of bullshit, but not mentioning actual later adaptations...

Student of Sophia · 10-08-2008, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lycanthrope

Hi

In my on going search for outside influences on Christianity and vice versa, what pagan influences on Christianity have modern scholars been able to identify?

Is there a link between Osiris-Dionysus character and Jesus? Some of the sources say it was O-D copying Jesus other Christian apologetics say it was the other way around.

It'd be great if someone can list the similiarities of ancient pagan religions that Christianity seem to build upon. I am interested in this aspect on pagan influences on christianity but I dont quite know where to start, would appreciate if someone point me in the right direction.

Thanks

You might gain some insight by expanding to comparative mythology in general. Then narrowing in on Christianity gradually.

"Comparative mythology is the comparison of myths from different cultures in an attempt to identify shared themes and characteristics. Comparative mythology has served a variety of academic purposes. For example, scholars have used the relationships between different myths to trace the development of religions and cultures, to propose common origins for myths from different cultures, and to support various psychological theories."

Check out these vids:

http://www.guba.com/watch/2000809789
http://www.guba.com/watch/2000811750
http://www.guba.com/watch/2000813145
http://www.guba.com/watch/2000815919

spamandham · 10-08-2008, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Modern scholars have tended to avoid the question,

I'm sure many do, but when I read Talbert's "What is a Gospel", it was clear to me he took pagan influence as a given.

MarkA · 10-09-2008, 01:44 AM

Perhaps christianity can best be understood as one stage on the evolution of near eastern religious belief with each stage building on the previous one. A particular belief evolving from different but related beliefs.

Once Hellenistic thought structures and Hellenist ideas were introduced, the whole pace of evolution accelerated.

lycanthrope · 10-09-2008, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkA

Perhaps christianity can best be understood as one stage on the evolution of near eastern religious belief with each stage building on the previous one. A particular belief evolving from different but related beliefs.

Once Hellenistic thought structures and Hellenist ideas were introduced, the whole pace of evolution accelerated.

Hi, do you have any evidence/proof of that? I would like to know more please

mountainman · 10-09-2008, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lycanthrope

Hi

In my on going search for outside influences on Christianity and vice versa, what pagan influences on Christianity have modern scholars been able to identify?

Dear lycanthrope,

They were written in the greek language and feature an embodiment of the Heracliean Logos for the simple minded who are tricked by the rhetoric involved in spinning yarns into believing that the monstrous tale is in fact some form of historical truth.

Emperor Julian influenced the religion by legislating that it must be properly be called the religion of the Galilaeans. He acted wisely, but he could not stop the spread of the imperial emperor cult which had grown and established itself in the period from the Council of Nicaea, and the 318 "fathers of the universal (within the Hubble-Limit) ROMAN religion", etc.

Best wishes,

Pete

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10-08-2008, 01:01 PM	#13
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The people who claim that Horus was born of a "virgin" and was "resurrected" have a very metaphorical interpretation of those terms. They are looking at broad religious themes, not picky little details.

10-08-2008, 02:19 PM	#15
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	I think there are clear pagan roots in LATER christianity, unlike "pagan-mythicists" (opposed to Jewish-mythicists like Malachi151 here), who claim that Jesus story was copied from pagans SINCE BEGINNING. My view is that early christianity didn't need to borrow much from pagans... maybe as much as Philo did, before christianity: bad material world vs. good spiritual world, hell, souls, etc... But later, they adopted same way of portraying, they adopted sun-worship, they adopted pagan deities as "saints", they adopted traditions of "worship of Saturn" as Christmas, etc. etc. I was terrified by movies like Zeitgeist 1/3, claiming heavy load of bullshit, but not mentioning actual later adaptations...

10-09-2008, 01:44 AM	#18
MarkA Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 89	Perhaps christianity can best be understood as one stage on the evolution of near eastern religious belief with each stage building on the previous one. A particular belief evolving from different but related beliefs. Once Hellenistic thought structures and Hellenist ideas were introduced, the whole pace of evolution accelerated.

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