Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EGGO · 11-04-2003, 01:49 PM

Quote:

In the end, many of the anti-theists or agnostics arguments create as many deadends as they claim christianity to, and require even more or as much faith to still believe in what they do compared to xtianity.

Hmm....facts against faith...I wonder

Lonely_Road_Of_Faith · 11-04-2003, 02:57 PM

Quote:

In the end, many of the anti-theists or agnostics arguments create as many deadends as they claim christianity to, and require even more or as much faith to still believe in what they do compared to xtianity.

/Quote.

I would say there might be a little truth to that...I'm a Christian...but haven't always been one. I guess I would say that dead-end arguments can crop up regarding any theistic or non-theistic belief. It just depends on the person making the argument, I guess.

Jamie_L · 11-05-2003, 06:07 AM

Well, in some sense, existence has some deadends that can't really be explained, reasoned away, or comprehended by anyone.

Metaphysical outlook doesn't change these fundamental deadends.

Like I say, "Existence makes no sense."

Jamie

Nowhere357 · 11-05-2003, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by EGGO
In the end, many of the anti-theists or agnostics arguments create as many deadends as they claim christianity to, and require even more or as much faith to still believe in what they do compared to xtianity.

(I'm here because the thread title made me laugh. And think of people whose balls are bigger then their brains.)

Before I could agree with the claim that skeptic arguments and Christian arguments lead to as many deadends, I need to know what elevates belief in God and Jesus above say, belief in Zeus.

Lacking that distinction, I think the value of skepticism is self-evident. Look before you leap, is that not good advice?

keyser_soze · 11-05-2003, 09:10 AM

Cue AC/DC's "big balls"..

"The social pages say that I've got the biggest balls of them all"

Onager · 11-05-2003, 09:30 AM

Hang on a second pallies, what the hell dead ends are you talking about. Are there some Paradoxes of Skeptical Thought of which I'm unaware? I can't just say there are fewer - because there are none! It's the very nature of skeptical thought not to accept dubious evidence.

It really irks me the way that the scrotally gifted will blurt out some wildly rediculous claim in hopes that a less preposterous version of that same claim will be accepted. I'm even more upset that it seems to occasionally work.

I hate to adopt an aggressive stance, but it gets my dander up whenever I'm accused of having faith. Take it back.

livius drusus · 11-05-2003, 09:38 AM

This is a poor excuse for an upper forum discussion. Moving to Elsewhere.

Jamie_L · 11-05-2003, 09:43 AM

Hey, if we'd just had a better thread title, this could have worked great in the "upper forums". Oh well.

By "deadends", I'm referring to the big, ultimate ones. What I like to call the "brute facts of existence". There are one or more aspects of existence that "just are", and things "just being" don't really make any sense. You can dress them up and call them "God", or you can blithely accept them with an honest shrug, but either way these brute facts are deadends for inquiry.

That's what I meant. Most religions are chock full of holes and problems, but non-theistic and naturalistic philosophies can't really claim to have "no deadends", IMO.

Jamie

livius drusus · 11-05-2003, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L
Hey, if we'd just had a better thread title, this could have worked great in the "upper forums".

Not to mention an OP that made an actual argument and possibly one or two fewer gonad jokes in the replies.

If you want to have a serious discussion on the topic, please do start a new thread in GRD. I get the distinct feeling this one is destined for Beavis and Buttheaddom.

Onager · 11-05-2003, 10:03 AM

I consider a dead end to be a situation where you have painted yourself into a corner. Rational thinking, if it is truly rational, will not create this situation. Your "brute facts of existence" are, to my thinking "loose ends" at worst and "open ended" at best. It sounds like a semantic argument, but I'm not willing to accept the term as it was meant in the OP.

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11-04-2003, 02:57 PM	#2
Lonely_Road_Of_Faith Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 519	Quote: In the end, many of the anti-theists or agnostics arguments create as many deadends as they claim christianity to, and require even more or as much faith to still believe in what they do compared to xtianity. /Quote. I would say there might be a little truth to that...I'm a Christian...but haven't always been one. I guess I would say that dead-end arguments can crop up regarding any theistic or non-theistic belief. It just depends on the person making the argument, I guess.

11-05-2003, 06:07 AM	#3
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Well, in some sense, existence has some deadends that can't really be explained, reasoned away, or comprehended by anyone. Metaphysical outlook doesn't change these fundamental deadends. Like I say, "Existence makes no sense." Jamie

11-05-2003, 09:10 AM	#5
keyser_soze Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: god's judge (pariah) Posts: 1,281	Cue AC/DC's "big balls".. "The social pages say that I've got the biggest balls of them all"

11-05-2003, 09:30 AM	#6
Onager Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming Posts: 325	Hang on a second pallies, what the hell dead ends are you talking about. Are there some Paradoxes of Skeptical Thought of which I'm unaware? I can't just say there are fewer - because there are none! It's the very nature of skeptical thought not to accept dubious evidence. It really irks me the way that the scrotally gifted will blurt out some wildly rediculous claim in hopes that a less preposterous version of that same claim will be accepted. I'm even more upset that it seems to occasionally work. I hate to adopt an aggressive stance, but it gets my dander up whenever I'm accused of having faith. Take it back.

11-05-2003, 09:38 AM	#7
livius drusus Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Selva Oscura Posts: 4,120	This is a poor excuse for an upper forum discussion. Moving to Elsewhere.

11-05-2003, 09:43 AM	#8
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Hey, if we'd just had a better thread title, this could have worked great in the "upper forums". Oh well. By "deadends", I'm referring to the big, ultimate ones. What I like to call the "brute facts of existence". There are one or more aspects of existence that "just are", and things "just being" don't really make any sense. You can dress them up and call them "God", or you can blithely accept them with an honest shrug, but either way these brute facts are deadends for inquiry. That's what I meant. Most religions are chock full of holes and problems, but non-theistic and naturalistic philosophies can't really claim to have "no deadends", IMO. Jamie

11-05-2003, 10:03 AM	#10
Onager Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming Posts: 325	I consider a dead end to be a situation where you have painted yourself into a corner. Rational thinking, if it is truly rational, will not create this situation. Your "brute facts of existence" are, to my thinking "loose ends" at worst and "open ended" at best. It sounds like a semantic argument, but I'm not willing to accept the term as it was meant in the OP.

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