Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wallener · 06-12-2005, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anixmander

The problem is that you still have to trust the entity that it is telling the truth about its claim.

If there is an entity painting fire-letters the size of Vermont on the moon for my edification, I'm going to listen to anything it says....

Biff the unclean · 06-12-2005, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigKahoona

But if you witnessed something seemingly magical would it lead you to believe in magic or would you deny its authenticity?

I would investigate it, since it’s so unusual, and if I found out it was magic I’d start to believe in magic.
So far every single last magical event that has been investigated has turned out not to be magic at all. So I would have to be some class of a half-wit to expect magic to exist and to simply accept it without investigation.
But if I found it was “real magic’ my fortune would be made!!! Never mind the Randi prize I’d get the Nobel Prize because I would have shown that everything we know about physics…hell, about every science…is wrong. Even 2+2=4 would have to be discarded once I demonstrated that magic is real. My picture would be on every front page.

Quote:

I STILL might not believe in Allah simply because I hate him so much.

That’s a neat trick…hating something you don’t believe exists.

Quote:

I find the fact that I would react in this way disturbing because it is so irrational.

Now follow that line of reasoning back to your own God...

_Naturalist_ · 06-12-2005, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigKahoona

An atheist friend of mine asked me a tough question the other day and I thought I'd paraphrase it a little and see how atheists respond to the same question,
Atheists,

If you and two of your Atheist friends saw the message "The God of the Bible Exists" written in flaming letters on the moon and spelled out in the stars for ten minutes and then disappear, would you...

A. Convert to Christianity
B. Believe it to be some kind of twisted Christian conspiracy involving your fundie neighbors next door.
C. Blame it on the oysters you had for lunch
D. Carefully research collective delusions

I am not asking this question in order to bait people into the whole "rich man and lazarus debate". I am just interested because when I was posed with a similar question with the message, "The God of the Koran exists", I found myself leaning towards options B,C,and D even though they seem like irrational answers to me.

What does it mean to be spelled out in the stars? Are the actual stars rearranged, or are new stars added to form the message? In this example, do we know exactly how the message was formed, that is, can we know whether they were the real stars or just a projectiong somewhere or artificial lights flying in formation?

I would assume it was some sort of prank. I would certainly not convert to Christianity.

Joeman · 06-12-2005, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigKahoona

I understand that the question itself is quite silly. What I'm trying to get at is how rationally or irrationally we react to things that disprove or cast doubt on what we believe. Many people have pointed out the fact that Christians on this forum have been presented the facts which disprove their religion and yet still refuse to acknowledge the obvious. According to the Atheists on this forum, Christians give pitiful arguments and lose debate after debate concerning the big invisible pink unicorn. I'm not trying to fool anyone into belief. I'm simply trying to examine why people react so irrationally when they are shown evidence which disproves what they belive.

Personally I don't have any belief in any God or Gods, because I don't consider believing without evidence a virtue.

However, do I think Damascus Road type of experience could happen to me? Yes. It's very possible.

I think any God(s) can show me that he exists any time he wants to. But, until I receive any direct revelation and know perfectly which God that is, I have reason or obligation to believe in 2 hand or 3 hand myths and rumors.

Wallener · 06-12-2005, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeman

However, do I think Damascus Road type of experience could happen to me? Yes.

How would you then prove to someone else that your experience was real?

Thomas II · 06-12-2005, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigKahoona

An atheist friend of mine asked me a tough question the other day and I thought I'd paraphrase it a little and see how atheists respond to the same question,
Atheists,

If you and two of your Atheist friends saw the message "The God of the Bible Exists" written in flaming letters on the moon and spelled out in the stars for ten minutes and then disappear, would you...

A. Convert to Christianity
B. Believe it to be some kind of twisted Christian conspiracy involving your fundie neighbors next door.
C. Blame it on the oysters you had for lunch
D. Carefully research collective delusions

I am not asking this question in order to bait people into the whole "rich man and lazarus debate". I am just interested because when I was posed with a similar question with the message, "The God of the Koran exists", I found myself leaning towards options B,C,and D even though they seem like irrational answers to me.

B,C,D. The last thing I would do is to convert, because I would think that one would have to be desperate to advertise like that...Besides I walk away from anything flaming...

David Vestal · 06-12-2005, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fencesitter

Because it boosts their belief that nothing that God could do would convince an atheist to change their position. And except for one response here, you've pretty much confirmed that.

Fence

Then instead of hypothetical flaming letters, ask "what would it take to convert you to christianity." Then you'd get a much better idea of how set we are in our opinion.

For me, it would take two things: 1) some sort of clear supernatural evidence pointing to god, and 2) some sort of plausible explanation that gets him off the hook for the atrocities that the bible says he perpetuated.

What's so unreasonable about that?

Asha'man · 06-12-2005, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fencesitter

Because it boosts their belief that nothing that God could do would convince an atheist to change their position. And except for one response here, you've pretty much confirmed that.

Fence

I think you missed my response.

There is a huge gulf between believing that God exists and believing that he wants/needs/deserves our worship.

While God could easily demonstrate that he exists, if he confirms that the atrocities of the HB are factual, and his behavior accurately described, then he has a long way to go before worship is justified.

Sultanist · 06-12-2005, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asha'man

I think you missed my response.

There is a huge gulf between believing that God exists and believing that he wants/needs/deserves our worship.

While God could easily demonstrate that he exists, if he confirms that the atrocities of the HB are factual, and his behavior accurately described, then he has a long way to go before worship is justified.

Amen

Straight Hate · 06-12-2005, 06:38 AM

Z: Got to hell and help Satan overthrow God.

Seriously, something like B. An over-expensive prank, proving absolutely nothing. Why can God just fucking show himself? Is that really so hard?

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06-12-2005, 06:38 AM	#30
Straight Hate Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 4,171	Z: Got to hell and help Satan overthrow God. Seriously, something like B. An over-expensive prank, proving absolutely nothing. Why can God just fucking show himself? Is that really so hard?

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