Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Layman · 10-23-2003, 05:34 PM

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Originally posted by Steven Carr
Wright claimed that Celsus distinguished these different types of resurrection.

You have yet to demonstrate to me that you know what Wright's arguments are.

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Tell me, what dead body can be transformed at all when it has been eaten or cremated and is now part of another person? (What goes around comes around).

My belief is irrelevant. What matters is what Paul said.

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Should we ban transplants, as the heart will the belong to two different transformed bodies on a timeshare basis?

Silly and irrelevant.

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How do cremated bodies get transformed in Pauls' view? Please feel free to give us Paul's view (or Wright's if you want a higher authority)

I have no idea what Paul thought about cremated people.

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Paul on what will happen to live people

2 Corinthians 4
'1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.

When Paul says that while we are at home in our body we are away from the Lord, he means that we will still be bin our body when we are with the Lord.

Right. He's saying that "we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed in with our heavenly dwelling."

What's your point?

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And when he says the earthly tent will be destroyed, and a heavenly tent is already there, not made by human hands, he means the earthly tent will be kept and transformed , not that we will get a new already prepared tent.

Paul is saying that if we die, we get a new body.

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Just as when I tell my child that there is a new bike for him in the shop, for when his present bike is destroyed and broken, I just mean I will put a new coat of paint on his present bike.

Not at all.

I refuted you on every point you are trying to rehash on this issue in the other thread. If you are serious about resuming the argument do so there.

Bernard Muller · 10-23-2003, 06:53 PM

I wondered about the "spiritual body" in 1Cor15:44-46.
Does "body", something normally physical/material, make "spiritual" other than ethereal?

But then, we have in the same epistle:
1Co10:4 "and all [the Israelites of the exodus] the same spiritual drink did drink, for they were drinking of a spiritual rock following them, and the rock was the Christ;"

It looks here the rock cannot be a real rock (which would follow Moses' people around!!!), but something invisible/immaterial, as the Christ of the story (except if somebody can show me, in the OT, a visible rock/Christ moving along with the Israelites). That means "spiritual" in "spiritual rock" renders the whole thing ethereal. Same thing for "spiritual food" (previous verse) and "spiritual drink". The "spiritual" adjective prevails on the following noun, even if it is about something normally material, and makes the whole thing spiritual/ethereal/invisible.
That's according to Paul.

PS: the Didache also follow the same idea:
Ch10: You gave food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to Thee; but to us You did freely give spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Thy Servant.
And 1Peter:
2:5 "yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

Best regards, Bernard

Layman · 10-24-2003, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
I would like to see where Celsus makes this distinction.

Wright's point is pretty obvious. Celsus knew of the old myths but denied they were true.

However, as we have seen, intelligent pagans contemporary with early Christianity knew about such stories, and dismissed them as mythic fictions.Celsus 'knew the old myths of returning from the Underworld, but he was perfectly capable of distinguishing these from the actual resurrection of the body.'

Are you asserting that Celsus actually believed the old myths were true?

Layman · 10-24-2003, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bernard Muller
I wondered about the "spiritual body" in 1Cor15:44-46.
Does "body", something normally physical/material, make "spiritual" other than ethereal?

But then, we have in the same epistle:
1Co10:4 "and all [the Israelites of the exodus] the same spiritual drink did drink, for they were drinking of a spiritual rock following them, and the rock was the Christ;"

It looks here the rock cannot be a real rock (which would follow Moses' people around!!!), but something invisible/immaterial, as the Christ of the story (except if somebody can show me, in the OT, a visible rock/Christ moving along with the Israelites). That means "spiritual" in "spiritual rock" renders the whole thing ethereal. Same thing for "spiritual food" (previous verse) and "spiritual drink". The "spiritual" adjective prevails on the following noun, even if it is about something normally material, and makes the whole thing spiritual/ethereal/invisible.
That's according to Paul.

PS: the Didache also follow the same idea:
Ch10: You gave food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to Thee; but to us You did freely give spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Thy Servant.
And 1Peter:
2:5 "yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

Best regards, Bernard

As I showed in the other thread Bernard (mine on the bodily resurrection in Paul), the "rock" at issue was a material one. It was the rock of Exodus that provided the Jews with water while in the wilderness.

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10-23-2003, 06:53 PM	#32
Bernard Muller Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 927	I wondered about the "spiritual body" in 1Cor15:44-46. Does "body", something normally physical/material, make "spiritual" other than ethereal? But then, we have in the same epistle: 1Co10:4 "and all [the Israelites of the exodus] the same spiritual drink did drink, for they were drinking of a spiritual rock following them, and the rock was the Christ;" It looks here the rock cannot be a real rock (which would follow Moses' people around!!!), but something invisible/immaterial, as the Christ of the story (except if somebody can show me, in the OT, a visible rock/Christ moving along with the Israelites). That means "spiritual" in "spiritual rock" renders the whole thing ethereal. Same thing for "spiritual food" (previous verse) and "spiritual drink". The "spiritual" adjective prevails on the following noun, even if it is about something normally material, and makes the whole thing spiritual/ethereal/invisible. That's according to Paul. PS: the Didache also follow the same idea: Ch10: You gave food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to Thee; but to us You did freely give spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Thy Servant. And 1Peter: 2:5 "yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." Best regards, Bernard

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