Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ynquirer · 12-15-2006, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

So? I am not arguing for entities thought to be confined to an intermediate Platonic sphere.* Why would they be?

Well, that's Doherty's position, who is mentioned in the OP. Am I wrong to address it?

Quote:

But I am arguing that the archontes are spiritual forces in 1 Cor 2:6-8. This was Marcion's interpretation, and if you can find an earlier interpretation of 1 Cor 2:6-8, please so inform.

Luke seems to be prior to Marcion, and Lk 23:34 (“Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do”) affords almost an exact match for 1 Cor 2:8: “None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”

Quote:

Whether the archontes acted independently or used human agents in 1 Cor. 2:6-8 cannot be determined. Regardless, an ambigous reference that may or may not refer to unknown secular rulers does zero for the HJ position. If the Pauline author had meant Pontius Pilate, he would simply had written so. So why didn't he?

Perhaps because he wished to blame imperishable powers for Christ's death rather than perishable human that were mere tools of the former.

Rick Sumner · 12-15-2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

. If the Pauline author had meant Pontius Pilate, he would simply had written so. So why didn't he?

Just to check. . .

If the Pauline author had meant demonic forces, he would simply had written so. So why didn't he?

No. It lacks force from that end too.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

neilgodfrey · 12-15-2006, 08:56 PM

Re interpretations of "archons" in relation to Jesus' crucifixion the word clearly does mean spiritual powers responsible for the crucifixion in the Nag Hammadi literature -- in particular 1 Apoc James. Archons live in Jerusalem and work through the human powers there, so that the suffering of Jesus works at two levels - the outer physical one and at another hidden cosmological dimension. (No doubt a bit late for Paul in most people's view I'm sure but not for Origen's world.)

See, frex, Franzmann's "Jesus in the Nag Hammadi Writings".

Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com

Peter Kirby · 12-16-2006, 04:20 PM

A bump so that the thread is visible...I have split off `Middle Platonism and Missing Evidence' as well as `That Jesus is a Metaphysical Concept to be Proven'.

--
Peter Kirby

12-15-2006, 08:56 PM	#33
neilgodfrey Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Darwin, Australia Posts: 874	meaning of archons Re interpretations of "archons" in relation to Jesus' crucifixion the word clearly does mean spiritual powers responsible for the crucifixion in the Nag Hammadi literature -- in particular 1 Apoc James. Archons live in Jerusalem and work through the human powers there, so that the suffering of Jesus works at two levels - the outer physical one and at another hidden cosmological dimension. (No doubt a bit late for Paul in most people's view I'm sure but not for Origen's world.) See, frex, Franzmann's "Jesus in the Nag Hammadi Writings". Neil Godfrey http://vridar.wordpress.com

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12-16-2006, 04:20 PM	#34
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	A bump so that the thread is visible...I have split off `Middle Platonism and Missing Evidence' as well as `That Jesus is a Metaphysical Concept to be Proven'. -- Peter Kirby

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