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Old 03-25-2007, 10:15 PM   #161
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...and you have not demonstrated why we should expect to be able to extract reliable historical information from a story where magic and a magical being are central and not merely add-ons. It seems we are at an empasse.
The thread began with somebody purporting to demonstrate the reverse (that is, that we can be sure that no reliable historical information can be extracted). My purpose has been to argue that the grounds advanced for that conclusion on this thread have been inadequate. If we agree that that conclusion has not, in fact, been adequately demonstrated, and that the question must therefore be regarded as an open one, I don't see that as an impasse.
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Old 03-25-2007, 10:22 PM   #162
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Well, ok, the idea is that Mark (or more likely, pre-Mark) was written as an actual work of fiction like the Oddysey. The main character was compelling, and so people started a religion around him, just like in modern times we have religions that pop up around known works of fiction, such as the Church of the Jedi, and Scientology.

Newcomers didn't necessarily know it was a work of fiction, or simply refused to believe it, seeing as fiction was still a genre in it's infancy, and they took it seriously. From there, the history is the same as any HJ model.
'Like the Odyssey' is not a sufficient characterisation to make clear what the hypothesis is supposed to be, for two reasons: Mark, or some hypothetical original version of it, differs too much from the Odyssey in literary characteristics to be placed in the same genre with it (it's not an epic poem); and we don't actually know the circumstances, or the intentions, that lay behind the composition of the Odyssey.

The analogy with the Church of the Jedi and with Scientology is also inadequate. To the extent that the Church of the Jedi actually functions as a real religion (which is debateable), it does so not just because Lucas made up the original story of the Jedi, but because real people deliberately and intentionally launched it as a movement. And no matter what they may say for dramatic or recreational purposes, both you and I know that they don't believe in the historical accuracy of the Jedi stories. In not quite the same way, Scientology as a religious movement got started because Hubbard intentionally and deliberately sought to recruit people to it, and to convince them that the stories were true. So far as you've outlined it, your story doesn't match either of these.

As for saying the story 'from there' is 'the same as any HJ model', that may convey a clear meaning to you, but it doesn't to me. Still not enough details for me to have any clear idea of what you're suggesting.
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Old 03-26-2007, 06:53 AM   #163
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I don't know of anything that definitely is true, but I do know of a number of things that could possibly be true, and against the historical accuracy of which I have seen no good argument. I see no reason to reject the possibility that a competent historian could extract usable historical information from the New Testament. I don't know that it has reliably been done, but I know of no reason to dismiss the possibility that it could be done.
After reading all your posts so far I get the impression that you have concluded that Jesus the Christ is either mythical or historical, anything that appear false may also be true and the improbable may be probable.

With your rationale, unless you can account for every single animal in the world, unicorns may exist, since unicorns are animals.

And in addition, from your posts, you have not made one single point or put forward any information, extra-biblical or from the bible itself, to support an argument for historicty in english or french.

Your claim is that Jesus the Christ may have been a real person because you believe it is possible, regardless of the fictitious nature of the NT, and this claim can be maintained unsupported.
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Old 03-26-2007, 10:59 AM   #164
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Most critically-minded NT scholars are willing to grant that there is a possible psycho-somatic explanation for exorcisms.
Does this psycho-somatic explanation resolve Mark 5;11-13, "Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. And all the devils besought him saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter them. And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out and entered into the swine; and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, ( they were about two thousand) and they choked in the sea"

This is incredible story, unadulterated fiction, claims that devils or unclean spirits can be drowned, maybe these devils have lungs! Please contact your critically-minded NT scholars for further explanation.
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Old 03-26-2007, 05:07 PM   #165
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After reading all your posts so far I get the impression that you have concluded that Jesus the Christ is either mythical or historical, anything that appear false may also be true and the improbable may be probable.

With your rationale, unless you can account for every single animal in the world, unicorns may exist, since unicorns are animals.

And in addition, from your posts, you have not made one single point or put forward any information, extra-biblical or from the bible itself, to support an argument for historicty in english or french.

Your claim is that Jesus the Christ may have been a real person because you believe it is possible, regardless of the fictitious nature of the NT, and this claim can be maintained unsupported.
Let me try to put my claim in one sentence for you and see if you can grasp it.

My claim is that the arguments you have put forward are not logically valid arguments.

Do you understand what that means?
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Old 03-26-2007, 05:53 PM   #166
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Does this psycho-somatic explanation resolve Mark 5;11-13, "Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. And all the devils besought him saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter them. And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out and entered into the swine; and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, ( they were about two thousand) and they choked in the sea"

This is incredible story, unadulterated fiction, claims that devils or unclean spirits can be drowned, maybe these devils have lungs! Please contact your critically-minded NT scholars for further explanation.
I said "critically-minded" not those who accept everything in the gospels as historical uncritically. Other exorcisms in the gospels do not require this, and the historicity of this event you cite is not often supported by HJ scholars, being Markan redaction, in all likelihood.
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Old 03-26-2007, 07:35 PM   #167
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I said "critically-minded" not those who accept everything in the gospels as historical uncritically.
I cannot find anything in the Gospels to accept as credible.

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Other exorcisms in the gospels do not require this, and the historicity of this event you cite is not often supported by HJ scholars, being Markan redaction, in all likelihood.
If according to HJ scholars, the story of the 2000 pigs and Jesus is often regarded as fiction or a redaction, then have they, the HJ scholars, made any determination about the dead body of Jesus the Christ, is that story about his burial also a likely Markan redaction or fiction, and what about the supposed dead guy, Lazarus, is that a Markan redaction or fiction?

Can you name any exorcisms that really occured in the NT, performed by Jesus the Christ in the 1st century?
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Old 03-26-2007, 07:38 PM   #168
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Let me try to put my claim in one sentence for you and see if you can grasp it.

My claim is that the arguments you have put forward are not logically valid arguments.

Do you understand what that means?
I do not understand one single word.
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Old 03-26-2007, 08:03 PM   #169
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I do not understand one single word.
One of the words I used was 'not'. If that is one of the words you don't understand, how comes it that you are using it yourself?
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Old 03-26-2007, 09:19 PM   #170
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'Like the Odyssey' is not a sufficient characterisation to make clear what the hypothesis is supposed to be, for two reasons: Mark, or some hypothetical original version of it, differs too much from the Odyssey in literary characteristics to be placed in the same genre with it (it's not an epic poem); and we don't actually know the circumstances, or the intentions, that lay behind the composition of the Odyssey.
The premise is simple. The premise is "Mark (/pre-Mark) was written as a work of fiction". Period. The end. No more. I don't see why you find this difficult to understand.

If you understand the premise, and are willing to entertain it, then it would be possible to move onto what we might expect to find from a period work of religious fiction written by a Hellenistic Jew, or Greek very familiar with Judaism. But I'm tired of it. So I conceed whatever points get me out of this discussion.

Thanks for your time.
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