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MrMacSon · 10-17-2012, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

The Catholic Encylopedia sums it up -

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The formation of the New Testament canon (A.D. 100-220)

The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council.

The period of discussion (A.D. 220-367)
. and .
The period of fixation (A.D. 367-405)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

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Originally Posted by Duvduv

Unfortunately this only begs the question. WHO were the decisive authorities of "the Church" and when? And why would the Roman Catholic Tridentine Council be so important since the books of NT existed long before the division of the church into Roman Catholic and Orthodox?

WHO authorized a set of texts that always happened to be the canonical texts from the writings of the unknown Irenaeus onward, and according to some, even before, i.e. the 2nd century? And why, if it was a personal choice of the apologist, did the texts never vary if there were no supervising authority?!

Yes, it does somewhat 'beg-the-question' of "who", but it puts it in context of having happened over many, many generations over centuries: so many serial and concurrent groups would have been involved.

It was unlikely to have been the work of one person. Even Constantine's Council of Nicea was a collection of interested peoples who 'discussed' for days, largely to negate Arianism.

Subsequent posts, including your own, address the issues ..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

“Nearly all the New Testament writings were evoked by particular occasions, or addressed to particular destinations. But we may well presume that each of the leading Churches--Antioch, Thessalonica, Alexandria, Corinth, Rome--sought by exchanging with other Christian communities to add to its "special treasure", and have publicly read in its religious assemblies all Apostolic writings which came under its knowledge.

It was doubtless in this way that the collections grew, and reached completeness within certain limits, but a considerable number of years must have elapsed ... before all the widely separated Churches of early Christendom possessed the new "sacred literature" in full. And this want of an organized distribution, secondarily to the absence of an early fixation of the Canon, left room for variations and doubts which lasted far into the centuries.”
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

IMHO Those who colluded and managed to seize control of the government, of its authority, and hence of its swords to enforce their dogmatically worded 'Edicts' and 'Decrees'.

Anyone was free to question, or to reject anything regarding religion according to their own personal conscience, convictions, and will, until the worst despots of Christianity seized all political power and forced their doctrines, dogma, Edicts and Decrees upon everyone within the reach of their bloody swords;

'Recite after us, -exactly after us- each of these these words of this sacred confession... or die'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

........At the time the Constantinian regime evolved into the middle or thereafter of the 4th century. They had the mean, motive and opportunity.

Duvduv · 10-17-2012, 02:46 PM

Where is the evidence of all of this, including even the existence of "Christian" communities in those places? This is all speculation couched as fact. Indeed, it is still unproven that there were even any "communities" in the places identified in the epistles.

In my opinion a canon could only be invoked and accepted under a specific authority, i.e. the imperial power and the clergy it sponsored. It didn't happen over hundreds of years. It happened in the 4th and 5th century.

Iskander · 10-17-2012, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Where is the evidence of all of this, including even the existence of "Christian" communities in those places? This is all speculation couched as fact. Indeed, it is still unproven that there were even any "communities" in the places identified in the epistles.

In my opinion a canon could only be invoked and accepted under a specific authority, i.e. the imperial power and the clergy it sponsored. It didn't happen over hundreds of years. It happened in the 4th and 5th century.

Quote:

It happened in the 4th

What happened in the 4th century?

MrMacSon · 10-17-2012, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Where is the evidence of all of this, including even the existence of "Christian" communities in those places? This is all speculation couched as fact. Indeed, it is still unproven that there were even any "communities" in the places identified in the epistles.

In my opinion a canon could only be invoked and accepted under a specific authority, i.e. the imperial power and the clergy it sponsored. It didn't happen over hundreds of years. It happened in the 4th and 5th century.

I agree it's likely most of 'it' happened in the 4th & 5th century, after around the Council of Nicea and under Constantine, including the final editings of the epistles that outline those communities.

i.e. the epistles were, as outlined in the catholic encyclopedia, likely to have been a 'development' over a long period of time.

i.e. the attribution to the epistles being 'finalized' in the 1st or 2nd centuries is spurious.

Iskander · 10-17-2012, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Where is the evidence of all of this, including even the existence of "Christian" communities in those places? This is all speculation couched as fact. Indeed, it is still unproven that there were even any "communities" in the places identified in the epistles.

In my opinion a canon could only be invoked and accepted under a specific authority, i.e. the imperial power and the clergy it sponsored. It didn't happen over hundreds of years. It happened in the 4th and 5th century.

I agree it's likely most of 'it' happened in the 4th & 5th century, after around the Council of Nicea and under Constantine, including the final editings of the epistles that outline those communities.

i.e. the epistles were, as outlined in the catholic encyclopedia, likely to have been a 'development' over a long period of time.

i.e. the attribution to the epistles being 'finalized' in the 1st or 2nd centuries is spurious.

What are you agreeing with him?

Duvduv · 10-17-2012, 03:07 PM

The religion was established. The canon was established.
The canonical texts were written.
I know this view is considered heretical to many secular academics in the field.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Where is the evidence of all of this, including even the existence of "Christian" communities in those places? This is all speculation couched as fact. Indeed, it is still unproven that there were even any "communities" in the places identified in the epistles.

In my opinion a canon could only be invoked and accepted under a specific authority, i.e. the imperial power and the clergy it sponsored. It didn't happen over hundreds of years. It happened in the 4th and 5th century.

Quote:

It happened in the 4th

What happened in the 4th century?

Iskander · 10-17-2012, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The religion was established. The canon was established.
The canonical texts were written.
I know this view is considered heretical to many secular academics in the field.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

What happened in the 4th century?

Prove that the canon was established

MrMacSon · 10-17-2012, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

What are you agreeing with him?

Essentially, except I would say

* The final version of the Christian religion was established in the 4th & 5th Cs as other versions, such as Arianism, were diminished.

* The [near-final] canonical texts were written selected, edited, collated & finalised in the 4th & 5th Cs. The canon was established concurrently.

There has been commentary there were lots of gospel-like stories based on Old Testament prophecies in lots of communities before the formation of the NT canon.

Iskander · 10-17-2012, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

What are you agreeing with him?

Essentially, except I would say

* The final version of the Christian religion was established in the 4th & 5th Cs as other versions, such as Arianism, were diminished.

* The [near-final] canonical texts were written selected, edited, collated & finalised in the 4th & 5th Cs. The canon was established concurrently.

There has been commentary there were lots of gospel-like stories based on Old Testament prophecies in lots of communities before the formation of the NT canon.

Who established the “final version”, when?
What is the final version?

MrMacSon · 10-17-2012, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Prove that the canon was established

The existence of versions of the first Bibles - Codex Sinaiticus & Codex Vaticanus - in the 4th century. The variations of modern western bibles and Eastern [Orthodox] bibles *to them* suggests further editing, over subsequent centuries, as outlined in the catholic encyclopedia.

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10-17-2012, 02:46 PM	#292
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Where is the evidence of all of this, including even the existence of "Christian" communities in those places? This is all speculation couched as fact. Indeed, it is still unproven that there were even any "communities" in the places identified in the epistles. In my opinion a canon could only be invoked and accepted under a specific authority, i.e. the imperial power and the clergy it sponsored. It didn't happen over hundreds of years. It happened in the 4th and 5th century.

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