Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Reena · 02-08-2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jehanne

There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

This is very good, thank you. But to show you how extemrely sneaky they are they say that while it is true that there is no salvation outside the Church, there are many ways for a person to be in the Church (i.e. a "heretic" who is a very good and moral person might be a part of the "body of Christ" without formally declaring it, and can still be saved.) In this theme would be "baptism of desire", which essentially means that a non-baptized person can still be baptized if for instnce this person would be formally baptized if he knew what it was, believed it etc. Or something along those lines, they say it better than I do.

While this definitely contradicts some of the quotes you posted, they claim that it these new results are development and better understanding of the truth that was always there.

Also, because it is so hard for a pope to speak infallibly (I think there are only two statements in history of Church, one about Mary's assumption and the other about Mary's immaculate conception that popes made that are undeniably infallible), they can always say "oh, that wasn't infallible" *sigh*

I can't quite pinpoint this, but it is almost like doublethink.

Chris Weimer · 02-08-2006, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The church's position on abortion has changed from its earliest days. Abortion used to be okay up until a certain point when the soul was assumed to get into the fetus. In the 19th century (IIRC) the pope declared that abortion any time after conception was a sin.

But I bet they have some way of wiggling out of that - not really a dogma until the pope realized the truth.

Doing some research a long while back, it turned out that some Popes advocated abortion and some denounced it... It had mixed opinions...

NZSkep · 02-08-2006, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apikorus

Careful. I think a recent conference of Catholic theologians called into question the theological soundness of limbo, but from what I understand purgatory is something quite distinct and is still part of Catholic doctrine. Limbo is where unbaptised babies go -- something like that. Purgatory is some kind of temporary state where souls undergo final purification before going to be with God. By abandoning limbo, Catholic priests will be able to reassure parents who have suffered the grievous loss of an infant that their child has gone to heaven. I think now they can't quite say so, which must be very painful for all involved.

my bad, it was limbo i was thinking of.

Toto · 02-08-2006, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reena

Actually they say that abortion is always wrong, but in the past they did not know biology as well and it was common understanding of the day that fetus became human at "quickening."

So they say their past stance was the result of a lack of knowledge of development and the fact that they didn't think it was human until quickening.

They sure wiggle well

A Brief History of Abortion in the Catholic Church

Quote:

Abortion was made an excommunicable offense in 1869 under shall we say dubious circumstances. Some interesting things happened that year. At that time France was experiencing declining birth rates. The leader of France, Emperor Napoleon III needed to increase his population to strengthen his army.

darstec · 02-08-2006, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

A Brief History of Abortion in the Catholic Church

Quote:

Abortion was made an excommunicable offense in 1869 under shall we say dubious circumstances. Some interesting things happened that year. At that time France was experiencing declining birth rates. The leader of France, Emperor Napoleon III needed to increase his population to strengthen his army.

At one time I ran across a copy of a Church Sunday Bulletin from the American Civil War era in the archives of a Franciscan monastery. In it there was mention of a clinic where their parishioners could obtain a medically safe abortion. It was from a church from one of the Southern states. I had never been able to authenticate the Bulletin, but suspect because it was under lock and key with some of their valuable manuscripts, it was considered to be of some importance. It was among other papers of the era and probably long forgotten. That archive was not open to the general population of priests, monks and seminarians who lived there as a general rule, so that wasn't surprising.

I haven't seen anything like it since, but did hear mention of rumors that a copy of one similar was on some Internet web site a few years back.

Jehanne · 02-09-2006, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reena

This is very good, thank you. But to show you how extemrely sneaky they are they say that while it is true that there is no salvation outside the Church, there are many ways for a person to be in the Church (i.e. a "heretic" who is a very good and moral person might be a part of the "body of Christ" without formally declaring it, and can still be saved.) In this theme would be "baptism of desire", which essentially means that a non-baptized person can still be baptized if for instnce this person would be formally baptized if he knew what it was, believed it etc. Or something along those lines, they say it better than I do.

While this definitely contradicts some of the quotes you posted, they claim that it these new results are development and better understanding of the truth that was always there.

Also, because it is so hard for a pope to speak infallibly (I think there are only two statements in history of Church, one about Mary's assumption and the other about Mary's immaculate conception that popes made that are undeniably infallible), they can always say "oh, that wasn't infallible" *sigh*

I can't quite pinpoint this, but it is almost like doublethink.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

33. Condemned Proposition: That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

Iskander · 02-09-2006, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reena

As one of its claims to divine origins, the Catholic Church asserts that it has never taught falsely on any of its teaching about faiths and morals.

(Although they do allow for doctrine to develop.)

I have been trying to find historical data about what the Church taught throughout the last 2000 years, and whether it has changed, and if so how.

I was wondering if any of you have researched this issue and can give me some hints about where to start,

Thanks!

Try this one
http://www.truecatholic.org/heresiesjp2.htm#sources

Jehanne · 02-09-2006, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Try this one
http://www.truecatholic.org/heresiesjp2.htm#sources

http://www.traditio.com/
http://www.sspv.net/
http://www.catholicism.org/eens.html
http://olrl.org/
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/
http://www.sspx.org/

Chili · 02-09-2006, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reena

I was wondering if any of you have researched this issue and can give me some hints about where to start,

Thanks!

Reena, a good place to start is at a school of Divinity because that is where the Divine is taught first hand and is probably is where such records are kept.

Chili · 02-09-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reena

That is true, but they say that they always said limbo was a hypothesis not a dogma like say the resurrection.

Limbo is just a fact much the same as resurrection is a fact. I would be no problem to make it Dogma because all it means is that non-Catholics do not benefit from our communion with the saints and fellowship of believers.

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