Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 07-02-2010, 09:49 AM

Protons for studying the Dead Sea Scrolls

Quote:

... The analyses were conducted on seven small samples of the scrolls (average size of one square centimetre), following a request made by Dr. Ira Rabin of BAM (Bundesanstalt fur Materialforschung) in Berlin. The scrolls belong to the Shrine of the Book of the Israel Museum and the Ronald Reed Collection of the John Rylands University Library.

At the LANDIS laboratory (one of the INFN laboratories in Catania), non-destructive analyses were performed to obtain results on the origin of the scrolls. To produce a scroll, which was the writing material used at the time, a great quantity of water is needed. By analysing water samples taken in the area where the scrolls were found, the presence of certain chemical elements was established, and the ratio of their concentrations was determined. The ratio of chlorine to bromine in the fragments of the Temple Scroll was then analysed using proton beams of 1.3 MeV, produced by the Tandem particle accelerator at the INFN National Laboratories of the South. According to this analysis, the ratio of chlorine to bromine in the scroll is consistent with the ratio in local water sources. In other words, this finding supports the hypothesis that the scroll was created in the area in which it was found. The next step in the research will be to analyse the ink used to write the scrolls.

show_no_mercy · 07-02-2010, 10:01 AM

So this might be a blow to the idea that the scrolls were produced in, say, Jerusalem and then moved there at a later date to prevent destruction during the 1st Jewish-Roman war.

Toto · 07-02-2010, 10:27 AM

I think that is the implication, but the research seems to be at an early stage.

avi · 07-02-2010, 11:24 AM

Quote:

According to this analysis, the ratio of chlorine to bromine in the scroll is consistent with the ratio in local water sources.

In those days where would someone, living in Qumran, travel to fetch water? How would they manufacture materials (papyrus) which require LOTS of water in the preparation?

No, it is far more likely, notwithstanding particle accelerometric data, that the Papyrus scrolls were manufactured in some larger community, and then taken, AFTER manufacture, to Qumran, or Jerusalem, or wherever....

Furthermore, what does "local" mean? Are the tests done on water from Qumran versus water from the Jordan River? Are the tests done on water from Palestine versus Egypt?

Similarly, physical testing of ancient papyrus, for the purpose of dating the papyrus is ONLY useful, in my opinion, to refute the hypothesis of an origin PRIOR to the date presented as most likely.

In this manner, the current studies, comparing Bromine and Chlorine concentrations, suffers from not knowing anything about concentrations of these substances, in the vicinity of Qumran, 2000 years ago (i.e. making an unwarranted assumption about the constancy of the water supply during the past two millenia.

Did the Romans build aqueducts?
Has the natural salinity changed in 2000 years?
(saline = NaCl)
Has the rainfall pattern changed during that period of time?
Has it become hotter, leading to increased evaporation, with a concomitant increase in Na and Br concentrations?

This research is tenuous at best.

avi

bacht · 07-02-2010, 12:47 PM

I thought there was a system of cisterns used to catch seasonal rain in Qumran and other Dead Sea settlements?

meow · 07-02-2010, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

This research is tenuous at best.

avi

Of course it is tenuous at best. They have tried to push this kind of junk several times before, it's apparently aimed at generating good media coverage and then it quietly fades away. For some of the earlier efforts, see N. Golb's article on the "Qumran-Essene Theory and Recent Strategies Employed in its Defense." See also his other article on the "Bipolar Theory Of So-Called 'Qumran Spellings,'" in which he makes a mockery of the popular academic fantasy that people living at Qumran had their own special spelling rules.

In addition to the questions raised by Avi, I would also ask whether the distinguished Magen Broshi or the Dorot Foundation had anything to do with the appointment of this team of physicists, and whether any neutral, independent observers were involved in controlling the claims and analysis involved in the project.

meow · 07-02-2010, 08:05 PM

P.s. The most glaring weakness, of course, is the lack of any parchment found in Jerusalem itself, from the same time frame, with which the scrolls found in the caves could be compared. So it remains an arbitrary, not-entirely-implausible hypothesis.

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07-02-2010, 10:01 AM	#2
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	So this might be a blow to the idea that the scrolls were produced in, say, Jerusalem and then moved there at a later date to prevent destruction during the 1st Jewish-Roman war.

07-02-2010, 10:27 AM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I think that is the implication, but the research seems to be at an early stage.

07-02-2010, 12:47 PM	#5
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	I thought there was a system of cisterns used to catch seasonal rain in Qumran and other Dead Sea settlements?

07-02-2010, 08:05 PM	#7
meow Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Under a Rainbow Posts: 48	P.s. The most glaring weakness, of course, is the lack of any parchment found in Jerusalem itself, from the same time frame, with which the scrolls found in the caves could be compared. So it remains an arbitrary, not-entirely-implausible hypothesis.

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