Lysimachus

To RED DAVE , Wallener and Sauron,

I’ll answer all three of your questions regarding Solomon’s pillars in one shot.

Quote by Wallener:
Quoted by RED DAVE:
Quoted by Sauron:

Let me emphasize that I am in no way dogmatic about this. Based on the fact that 1 pillar was erected on either end, I believe it makes perfect theological sense, and I shall hereby explain why:

Solomon set up two pillars at the entrance to the Temple of which he built.

“And he set up the pillars in the porch of the temple: and he set up the right pillar, and called the name thereof Jachin: and he set up the left pillar, and called the name thereof Boaz.� (I Kings 7:21)

“And he reared up the pillars before the temple, one on the right hand, and the other on the left; and called the name of that on the right hand Jachin, and the name of that on the left Boaz.� (2 Chron. 3:17)

Symbolically, pillars are represented as upholding the heavens and the earth (Job 26:11; 1 Sam. 2:8). In the NT some apostles are called pillars (Gal 2:9); and the church is called “the pillar… of the truth� (1 Ti 3:15).

It has not been definitely explained why the right-hand pillar was named Jachin, but there is a probability that the name was an abbreviation of an inscription engraved on it. An analogy may be seen in a pillar discovered in the temple Sirwah in Arabia on which the word knt, “strength,� was engraved. Pillars have always been a symbol of strength, as pillars are used to support structures. They are the “strength� of the structure. The Lord of Hosts or “Jehovah� was the “strength� of Israel. Through the “strength� of the Lord, the Israelites were delivered, thus in all probability we have the 2 pillars commemorating the deliverance of Israel through the Lord’s “strength�. The term “legs of Christ� was termed by me based on the fact that I (as well as millions of Christians and many Messianic Jews) believe Christ IS Jehovah, the Son of God, the Messiah. As to whether the Jews of today believe Christ was the Messiah or not is of no merit to the understanding of the pillars. They DID believe in the Son of God, Jehovah. If they choose to not believe in Christ as the Messiah, then unfortunately that is the path they have chosen. Little do they realize that this rejection was their undoing. As my purpose here is not to go into a large expose on Christ’s messiahship, I will briefly support my stance on this matter based on the following, and then continue explaining my theological (non-dogmatic) theory behind the pillars.

Matthew 3:16,17 says: “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.� To ignore Christ as the Messiah is to ignore the prophecies of Isaiah and Micah in the Old Testament.

Micah 5:2-4 says: �But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. “ -- It is also important to remember that many prophecies had a dual application; one for the near future, and one for the distant future. In verse 6 it states “shall he deliver us from the Assyrian�. In Micah’s time, the name “Roman� was foreign, thus the term “Assyrian� was symbolically used to represent the foreign oppressors of Israel. And “Assyrian� is what would be understood by the people of that time.

The chief priests and scribes of Judea during Herod’s time well knew what this prophecy of Micah meant, as we later read in Matthew 2: 4-6: “And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.�

This “Kingdom� for which this “deliverer� would set up was not an earthly kingdom, but a Heavenly one. As many of God’s promises are conditional providing His children are faithful to Him, the prophecy that He would deliver them from the Assyrians (Romans) was conditional, providing they accepted Christ as the Messiah. Had the Jews fully accepted Christ as their Messiah, the Lord would have eventually delivered them from the Romans, and their kingdom would have been established forever.

Once again, I repeat; their rejection of Christ as the Messiah was their undoing as a nation. This is my stance on the matter.

Now back to the understanding of the pillars, as that is the central theme of this post:

We read in a book entitled “Secret Teachings of All Ages� by Manly P. Hall, researcher of eastern philosophy, the following:

“On one side towered the stupendous column of the intellect; on the other, the brazen pillar of the flesh. Midway between these two stands the glorified wise man, but he cannot reach this high estate without first suffering upon the cross made by joining these pillars together. The early Jews occasionally represented the two pillars, Jachin and Boaz, as the legs of Jehovah, thereby signifying to the modern philosopher that Wisdom and Love, in their most exalted sense, support the whole order of creation--both mundane and supermundane.�--(Manly P. Hall PhD., Secret Teachings of All Ages, p.99)

The name Boaz means “uncertain� according to some Bible dictionary definitions. Boaz was the name given to the left pillar of Solomon’s Temple. If you look facing the north (all maps the north is on top) between the two shores, Nuweiba Beach will be on your left. The Israelites at this point are in a state of “uncertainty�. After the deliverance, the Jews are now safely on the opposite shore through the “strength� of Jehovah. Through the Lord’s strength, they have been delivered. “Jachin�, most likely signifying “strength� (as mentioned earlier above) was the pillar erected on the right side of Solomon’s Temple; thus you have a pillar erected on the right side on the opposite shore when facing north. Other translations state that Boaz, the name of the left pillar, means "in strength", and that the right pillar Jachin means "God will establish", which signifies when combined, the message "In strength, God will establish His house in Israel".

The 2 pillars found on either side of the Gulf of Aqaba were virtually identical in appearance to the style of pillars found in Ashkelon. It would be hard to conceive any other logical reason for erecting 2 pillars on either side of the sea for anything else other than commemorating the deliverance of the children of Israel during the parting of the Red Sea. To state that the identification of all the wheels lying between these two pillars is purely coincidental is stretching the laws of random chance beyond its limits.

Why do we believe these Pillars were erected by Solomon? A few sound reasons lead us to our conclusion:

• 1. The pillars are virtually identical to the Pillars found in Ashkelon, on the Mediterranean coast of present day Israel.

• 2. It was Solomon who erected the two pillars at the entrance of the Temple.

• 3. I will quote Dr. Lennart Moller from “The Exodus Caseâ€? pp. 207, 208:
  
  �The suggested explanation of these columns, is that King Solomon erected them in memory of the deliverance of the people of Israel by going through the Red Sea. The columns were raised on either side of the crossing through the Red Sea. The erection of these columns probably took place about 3000 years ago, during the reign of King Solomon, perhaps simultaneously with the beginning of construction of the temple under King Solomon’s direction. King Solomon was also familiar with the waters of the Gulf of Aqaba, and had the equipment to transport these columns:
  
  �And King Solomon made a navy of ships in Eziongeber, which is beside Eloth, on the shore of the Red sea, in the land of Edom. And Hiram sent in the navy his servants, shipmen that had knowledge of the sea, with the servants of Solomon.� (I Kings 9:26-27)
  
  Elot was situated in the vicinity of today’s Eilat on the northern point of the Gulf of Aqaba, in present day Israel. Since King Solomon had his own fleet in the Gulf of Aqaba, and moreover was very rich and influential, it could not have been any great problem to manufacture these columns, and transport them to the respective places by sea. The site of the crossing through the Red Sea (Nuweiba) is only roughly 70 km south of the northern point of the Gulf of Aqaba, Eilat of today.
  
  These columns suggest that this place, on either side of the Gulf of Aqaba, has been marked by a rich and influential person with access to shipping vessels. In this region it is almost impossible to take these columns by land, as the mountain ridges reach right down to the edge of the sea.
  
  The red granite may have come from southern Egypt. This is not unlikely since King Solomon was rich, had his own fleet and built the temple in Jerusalem to house the Ark of the covenant, and to honour the Lord. In addition, it can be mentioned that Solomon was married to the daughter of Pharaoh then reigning in Egypt, and thus had excellent contacts with the Egyptian’s through his father-in-law:
  
  �And Solomon made affinity with Pharaoh king of Egypt, and took Pharaoh’s daughter,; and brought her into the city of David, until he had made an end of building his own house, and the house of the LORD, and the wall of Jerusalem round about.� (I Kings 3:1)
  
  In the first book of Kings one can read about King Solomon’s tremendous wealth, wisdom and desire to glorify the Lord. It might very well have been King Solomon, who had these columns erected. In any case he had the resources, the practical requirements, and was deeply involved in drawing attention to the work of the Lord through building, according to the biblical texts.� – L. Moller

• 4. Ron Wyatt, while imprisoned in Saudi Arabia, directed his captors to the location opposite of Nuwieba and found a second column erected on the Saudi coast. The inscription written in Hebrew was later translated to say “Mizraim (Egypt); Solomon; Edom; death; pharaoh; Moses; and Yahwehâ€?. Ron Wyatt recounts his experience here: http://www.wyattnewsletters.com/Ron/onelast.htm

Notwithstanding the fact that at this time there is no direct proof of the Hebrew inscription witnessed by Ron Wyatt, the notion that they were erected by King Solomon is most certainly quite feasible.

Lysimachus

Suaron,

I have not been on any of the digs myself, no. But I have several friends who have been on a number of these digs. One of these friends comes to visit me often and shares a lot of the experiences. I have no reason to disbelieve any of it after I have witnessed loads of photos and footage. I have even seen some of my friends in the DVD footage, with many different people from the crew attending the dig. I even know Richard Rives’ son, (who is 16), and has told of his experiences on these digs. I was even invited to go on the dig in August by Richard Rives himself. The only thing preventing me from doing this, is I lack the sufficient funds at this time.

Wallener,
If the IAA wishes for the purpose of these digs to be kept secret, and wish to keep as much info as possible “confidential�, and if it is confidential, how could I?

I will answer your question from Jonathon Gray’s book, “Discoveries: Questions Answered�, from Q#222. Note what Jonathon has to say:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q) 222 THE DISCOVERY AND THE ISRAELIS

Russel Standish showed me a letter from the Israel Antiquities Authority denying that Ron Wyatt ever received a permit to excavate in Jerusalem. Standish told a meeting that no one has seen evidence of “Ron Wyatt’s excavation license for Israel. It won’t come, BECAUSE IT DOESN’T EXIST.� How do you respond?

ANSWER:

So what’s new? In our book Ark of the Covenant (first published in April, 1997) we reported that Ron Wyatt was granted a permit by Israeli authorities to excavate in Jerusalem (see Chapter 21).

But we also explained that if one should write to the Israel Antiquities Authority, one “would probably receive a letter that went something like this: ‘We have no record of any archaeological permit having been issued to a Ronald Wyatt, nor does anyone in this office know him. If Mr Wyatt conducted any excavation in Jerusalem, it would have been done illegally.’�

So, when someone writes to them 19 months later, what is their response? Precisely as we predicted!

They reply: “Ron Wyatt has never received a license from the Israel Antiquities Authority to excavate in Israel. If he says he has excavated in Israel, he has committed an illegal act…� (letter dated November 30, 1988. See Appendix 10)

Now consider. UP to 15 people were working and digging on the site. There was scaffolding, piles of earth, constant use of ropes, hoses, shovels, picks, jackhammers and drills… for several years. And on a very high profile site.

If the team had been doing all of this without a permit, the authorities would have stopped the operation very smartly.

My small team of six was promptly approached by authorities bent on checking our activities –and at the time we were only videoing and measuring. The site, as I said, is very public. It is under constant surveillance. Any illegal excavation would be quickly cut short.

It is naïve to expect any thinking person to swallow the line that Ron never had a permit.

Now for some eyewitness testimony concerning Ron and the Antiquities Department.

Dr. John Baumgardner, who accompanied one of Ron’s Ark of the Covenant expeditions during March and April 1986, reported in a letter dated December 17 that year:

“We investigated a tunnel network inside the portion of Mt. Moirah north of the old city of Jerusalem where Gordon’s Calvary is located…Incredibly, we worked under the authority of the Director of Antiquities.� (See Appendix 11)

[LYSIMACHUS’ NOTE: Remember, critics used Baumgardner to discredit the Noah’s Ark site, and used him when Baumgardner changed his mind about the site. Now that Baumgardner mentions the IAA, let’s see if critics will still stick with him about this! The copies of these letters are all attached to the back of this book]

Another witness is Bob Murrel, who three times worked with Ron in Jerusalem. Bob independently confirms:

“It was in early January 1989. We went back for our second dig on the Ark of the Covenant. We needed more help so Ron gave the okay for me to invite some friends… John Rauch, Dale Earnsburger (both worked with me on the Florida Conference Executive Committee), Dr. Fenton Froom, Frank Shefffield and Randy Osborne. John, Dale and Dr. Froom were skeptical of the whole thing but came back as believers. We also had about 5 or 6 other people helping us… We dug through what appeared to be a wall. Ron thinks this wall was put there to camouflage the cave. Must have been the back of a pottery factory as we found 3 bushels of broken pottery that was taken back to the hotel and later turned over to the antiquities department. They said it dated back to the time period we were looking at…

“Our time had run out on this dig as we were allotted just so much time. We closed things up and came back a year later… this time with a radar Ron had borrowed. Ron took radar scans at ground level where you and I stood for the photo. I was inside and moved the transmitter back and forth to see what was behind the rock wall that we thought was the entrance to the cave and cisterns where first temple things were stored. Don’t forget Solomon made 10 of everything… candlesticks, table of showbread, etc. I went up to look at the graph pictures and could see the cave below us with contents in it…

“ The frequency generator was set for gold and I watched this work several times and it crossed directly over the spot I was stooping. According to this there was definitely gold below us.� (Appendix 12)

Also, in a letter to Ron after liaising with antiquities director Dan Bahat, [Dr.] Bill Shea writes:

“Bahat himself does not want you to do any more tunneling… So the way the site has to be approached according to his instructions is to dig a series of 5 meter squares up to the face of the cliff and inwards, and that way you will have stratigraphic control over your findings… He did report on the pottery that you brought him and he says that it is ‘Second temple period to Medieval’…� (Appendix 14)
In 1988, when Ron resumed excavating again after meeting with the new members of Antiquities, three young men from Australia were with him, witnessed everything, and when they found the underwater pots at Ashkelon, some men from Antiquities met them at the site – all of which is on video. After that, Ron and those young men did some radar work on some sites with Antiquities people present – again on video.

So why the current denial from the Israel Antiquities Authority that Ron ever received a permit?

Although we have suggested sufficient reasons in answers to Questions 216 to 221, I shall add another ingredient.

the United Nations has two resolutions concerning Israel that are relevant to this discussion. One was passed after the Six Day War: Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of November 22, 1967. The other was in 1981 after Israel entered Lebanon against Yasser Arafat’s guerrillas: Security Council resolution 497 (1981) of December 17, 1981. These affirm the “inalienable rights� of Palestinians and other peoples of the occupied territories to certain resources within their territories, and regard “any infringement thereof as being illegal.� In effect, these two resolutions call for Israel to conduct no archaeological excavations in its occupied territories.

It means that those who do such excavations are obliged to keep it quiet. Reportedly archaeologist Vendyl Jones spoke out concerning his digs and the Israeli authorities sent him home. Enough said.

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A lot to digest there.


.

gregor2

One is reminded of Velikovsky, Chariots of the Gods, Hal Lindsey, the Millerites, etc. & etc.

Will you promise to return in September after the promised discoveries in August don't pan out?

Wallener

So, bottom line, Wyatt has no dig permits or licenses or etc etc etc.

Interesting.

Well, not really.

Kosh

Wyatt doesn't have much of anything these days, 'cept his bones.

R.I.P.

Sven

Umm, you do know the difference between "theory" and "wild guess"?

I hereby formally challenge you to defend this claim.
Just that you know: If I have time (it's not yet clear), I will debate Dr. Jay L. Wile on radiometric dating in September. You present a good opportunity to practise wiping the floor with creationists a bit.
Will you step up?

There is never "absolute proof" of anything - so this statement doesn't make sense.

Yeah, right, give or take a few million years on the 4.55 billion years of the age of the Earth does not matter much. Your point?

Claims, theories, this is only semantics. The point is that experts don't agree with the extraordinary claims/theories of Wyatt/WAR - as your statement (far above) suggested.

Ever heard of circular logic?
WA is trying to present evidence that the story is true - using the assumption that is is true in this obviously has some problems.

Of course. But please don't claim that experts agree with them on these.

[snip refuted Noah's ark crap]

Gold chariots of course don't mean necessarily gold wheels.

And gold-plated means having gilded wheels, how exactly?

:huh: His statement was crystally clear to me. "Also any competent acheologist would have included a scale" [on the pictures] "suspicious that a scale] is not [on the pictures]".
IOW, the folks who shot the pictures were incompetent as archeologists. Is this more clear?

Or maybe they just realized that it's impossible to reason someone out of something he did not reason to get into. :rolling:

I did not only ask who brought them - I also asked who tested them. "had them tested" is not particularly helpful to answer my question.
And where were the results published?

“I found a 4-spoked wheel,� exclaimed Aaron. “And dozens of bones. I took out two of the bones and had them tested by the Department of Osteology at Stockholm University. They identified them as parts of a man’s femur. (The man had been 160 to 170 cm. tall� (i.e. 64-68 inches).

When Aaron asked them about the age of the bones, a lab official replied, “They are from a very long time ago. The bones have mineralized.�[/quote]
Is there any way to see the original reports?

Talk about bias.

So, in short, we apparently have only results from one person with a preconceived conclusion (Lennart Moller), and no independent confirmation. Why I'm not surprised?

I'm interested in who these "other biology professors at his university" are who worked closely with him when he identified these bones.

I hope you (and others) did follow me advice to look up threads by "ExtraSense"...

See above. Perhaps they just don't care about crackpots and have better things to do.

No, you haven't shown anywhere that they are indeed chariot wheels and not steamship hand wheels.
If you indeed think showing fuzzy pictures is showing anything to be true, you are maybe beyond help.

As soon as you find any independent, non-biased investigator, who actually presents a scale and an analysis of the material, I don't care at all how many relatives and friends of Wyatt agree with him. *shrug*

:rolling:
I know, everyone who disagrees with WAR/Wyatt is automatically "godless". Even devout Christians.

Charlesknight

L - here is the "stub" I have created, getting editting!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyatt

RED DAVE

Two points:

1) There is no evidence as to the so-called Pillars of Solomon except the unsupported word of Ron Wyatt, who also believes that the blood of Jesus (complete with 23 chromosomes) dripped down from the cross into a cavern below the Garden Tomb (not claimed to be the site of X's burial until the 19th Century; directly denying the 5th Century Church of the Holy Sepulchur). Not a reliable witness. So, we have a pin sheared from a rock in a speciously identified cave, and this proves something?

2) From Lysimachus:
Your stance on the matter is that of an antisemite.

RED DAVE

Sauron

It's a natural phenomenon, not a man-made pillar.

Which is nowhere near the place of the alleged Red Sea crossing. So I don't see what pillars in Solomon's temple have to do with WAR pseudo-archaeology.

deleting the rest of the pillar text, since none of it answers my question: where was it ever recorded in any ancient text that Solomon set up pillars at the Red Sea crossing point?

Repeat it until you're blue in the face. (1) it's not true; and (2) it's not relevant to the question of ancient records of these two pillars.

1. What is the evidence that they were "virtually identical"?

2. The claim that there is "hard to conceive any other reason" is nonsense. I can give you a half-dozen reasons for erecting pillars on opposite sites of a harbor or a narrow straight.

Then you have a laughable understanding of random chance. In point of fact, random chance is not even involved here. This isn't like finding a four leaf clover, where a known percentage of the clover will have four leaves. This is like looking for a polar bear in the sahara -- there is no record of any such situation, and no reason to even expect it.

Why do we believe these Pillars were erected by Solomon? A few sound reasons lead us to our conclusion:

• 1. The pillars are virtually identical to the Pillars found in Ashkelon, on the Mediterranean coast of present day Israel.

Still waiting for evidence of this claim.

• 2. It was Solomon who erected the two pillars at the entrance of the Temple.

True, but irrelevant. The fact that Solomon may have erected two pillars at the temple does not prove anything about these other two formations.

Interesting story. But no evidence, only a what-if scenario.

Solomon had a navy, and used Phoenician mercenaries. Cool. Interesting, but this does not prove that these pillars are deliberately erected, nor does it prove that Solomon was the one who erected them.

Having a fleet in the area does not prove (a) that these formations are man-made; (b) that Solomon erected them. Neither does the wealth question even enter in here. If they were erected, then you need to demonstrate that (c) it was such an expensive thing that only someone like Solomon could have afforded it.

This suggests that the formations are natural, not erected by people.

"May have come" is not good enough. If there is any merit to this, it should be easy to prove. The IGS was able to identify the probable quarry location of the ossuary, based upon the mineral content.

None of which matters here. See (a), (b) and (c) above.


Not by anything you have presented.

Lysimachus

More to say later, but Sauron, a lot of things happened that the Bible did not record, yet were still in the biblical time. The Bible could not record everything. If it did, you'd be reading 20,000 "dead sea scrolls".

BTW, you're the only one who thinks the Pillar is a natural phenomenon. I don't think you really believe that yourself. Not a single critics has even used that as an argument. Even the Saudis acknowledged it. In Moller's books, there are photos of the marker left by the government indicating where the adjacent pillar was located. In the book, the Nuwieba pillar looks virtually identical to the pillars in Ashkelon. Very clear photos that no one can deny. It doesn't have to be mentioned in the Bible.

The Bible also didn't mention that Pharoah's chariot wheels are still sitting in the bottom of the Red Sea. The Bible also didn't mention where the Ark of the Covenant was hid. Yet, these discoveries have a very strong connection and pattern bringing to light the Biblical record.

Why can't you just be open? Open yourself up, and say "I'm willing to see if there is any truth in this"? God loves you, and he wants you to soften yourself. Burry your pride in the dust, and berid of self opinion.

If I did not believe in God, I would never want to come in a forum and waste my life away trying to "MAKE SURE" there is no good reason to believe that God exists. I'd go get my fling in this world, and enjoy life. Why do you spend your life trying to prove the Bible is false and there is no God? Is your concience bothering you? is that why? Do you not feel that your duty of stomping out the "pest" of Christianity is fulfilled?