andrewcriddle

One of the problems with Philostratus is that from his own testimony he appears to be presenting an account of Apollonius with major differences from the earlier life of Apollonius by Moeragenes .

He justifies this by his claimed access to a previously unknown journal by Damis a disciple of Apollonius. Much of the material which he claims to have obtained from Damis is either wrong or most improbable.

This whole procedure raises legitimate suspicions IMO.

(I think you're right that the majority of scholars do not regard Damis' journal as a sheer invention by Philostratus, however several of these regard Damis' journal as a pre-Philostratean fabrication. IIUC the majority opinion is against the idea that the journal of Damis is an authentic product of a disciple of Apollonius.)

Andrew Criddle

Rick Sumner

Another notable observation in Price's review is his comments on Mithraic Taurobolium. There is no reason to think that Mithraists practiced taurobolium. It is found in no iconography, mentioned on no inscriptions, found in no Mithraea. It isn't so much as hinted at in the Mithraic Liturgy, nor, for that matter, is it mentioned by Lucian, Plutarch, Firmicus Maternus, or Porphyr--such a deafening silence from so many evidences on something that surely stood out (people felt inclined to comment on the Taurobolium of Cybele and Attis' followers, for example) forms a rather compelling argument against. We can, quite safely, bolster my above suggestion that "there is no reason to think. . ." to a much more confident "Mithraists did not practice taurobolium."

It seems that the first person to include a taurobolium in the Roman Mysteries of Mithras was Cumont. Cumont's heart was in the right place, but unfortunately it turns out he based his account of Mithraism as much on what he thought a Mystery Religion should be as he did on what the evidence indicated. For a good discussion of taurobolium, I'd reccommend Duthoy's The Taurobolium (in no small part due to the fact that I am aware of no other book devoted to the topic, though of course it's mentioned in many).

Which brings us back to Price. Such a mistake is certainly an understandable one--the misinformation permeates throughout popular accounts of Mithraism. What it isn't is understandable in what is ostensibly an expert review of a leading expert's book. It's an understandable blunder by someone operating in an area they're not familiar with. Which is exactly what Price is doing--so why is he offering a "higher critical review" in the first place?

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Malachi151

Yes, Jesus is defiantely based on other pagan gods and myths.

As for the sun and the date of December 25th, I have read that December 25th was the day of the Sol Viticus holiday because it was believed that the sun god Helio came to earth in human form to save the souls of mankind, but he was killed by non-believers, and he was re-born 3 days later and ascended to heaven where he continues to shine as the sun.

December 22nd is the day of the winter solstice, when the sun "dies", and December 25th is 3 days later, representing the day when Helios was resurrected.

Helios, the sun god, does he look familiar?









http://www.athenasweb.com/HomerAphrodite.html





http://www.jesus8880.com/chapters/ge...-mythology.htm

And lastly, Helios surrounded by the 12 signs of the zodiac.

http://www.voynich.nu/extra/img/helios.jpg

There are images in Jewish temples of both Helios surrounded by 12 signs of the zodiac, helios surrounded by 12 men, who represent his followers and signs of the zodiac, and later, these same images, almost identical, wxcept with a beard and/or without horses, of Jesus surrounded both by signs of the zodiac, and by his 12 followers.

The 12 desciples represent the signs of the zodiac, which was a common theme in all man-god myths of the period.

Also see:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

Toto

Rick: Robert Price's specialty is Biblical Criticism, in particular literary textual criticism. I don't think he holds himself out as an expert on Mithraism, and is probably relying on what he learned in graduate school. Why don't you write to him about this issue, since you keep bringing it up here but he doesn't lukr here? His home page is here.

Rick Sumner

This is exactly my point. He's not an expert. Why is he reviewing the book of someone who is? Why does he carry on--both in his books and in this review--as though he is qualified to offer expert commentary on Mystery Schools when he simply isn't.

I have. Twice. He negelected to respond.

This is the first time I've brought it up here. I've also raised the topic once at Ebla. Ted Hoffman brought it up here, citing my post on Ebla.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Roger Pearse

I didn't see any references to ancient literature on this subject anywhere in this article.

I suspect that you misunderstand me. I take the view that we can only state as fact things which the historical record gives us. So my question is what, in this instance, does the historical record contain on this subject?

Is it a fact? In which ancient source do we find such a statement? And, in which official calendar do we find this?

I'm not going to keep reiterating this: we need DATA here.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Malachi151

There is also a good thread on this in the Theology forms:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...4&page=1&pp=15

From my post there:

This image is hard to see, but it is an example of an early Jesus image where Jesus has replaced Helios at the center of the zodiac. You can tell that its Jesus because he has a beard.

He has Helio's sun rays shining out from his head and "he's got the whole world in his hands".





The 12 apostles in the story of Jesus represent the 12 signs of the zodiac.

Looking up to the sky and lifting up the hands in praise was an ancient practice of sun worship that was adopted by the Christians from the pagan sun worshiping roots.

Malachi151

Yes, but there are other Christians who did defend and promote the celebration of Dec 25th. I remember reading of these statemes from a 3rd century Christian, talking about how it was okay to celebrate Dec 25th, because even though is was a celebration for the pagans of the "birth of the sun", for Christians they were to celebrate the God who created the sun.

Eventually, however, it transformed from being a celebration of "the birth of the sun" to a celebration of the "birth of the Son".

Chris Weimer

Malachi151 - I repeat Roger Pearse's request for a source for this. Is there any evidence for this claim at all?

Wads4

How about Elijah as a Jesus model? He attempted to reform polytheistic, henotheistic Israel during the reigns of Ahab and Jezebel, and condemned the breakers of God's laws; he went into the wilderness to meditate,he returned in triumph, peformed miracles, and ascended into Heaven