Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Julian · 01-16-2008, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

A Moderater should at least be able to know the difference between different words. But let me point them out to you.

" If a damsel that is a virgen be betrothed unto a husband, and a man find her in the city, and LIE with her, then you shall stone them with stones.....because she cried not (meaning she did not resist, it was mutual) and the man because he humbled his neighbor's wife..... This says nothing about rape, it was mutual sex between two people...this was Adultery.

Show me where it says that it was mutual sex. As far as I can see, it doesn't say either way, but since all the other sections are about rape then... Besides, how would they know if it was mutual or not? It doesn't really matter since she is dead meat in both cases. Sucks to be her.

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Verses 28-29 NOT ABOUT RAPE I dont know what bible you are using that translates to lay hold of (TAPHAS) into rape but to the Hebrew text! Whenever rape is being commited in the OT CHAZAQ or ANAH are used. To lay hold of is translated from TAPHAS, not CHAZAQ OR ANAH.

Well, I don't know Hebrew, but I do know Greek. So I looked at how they translated it to Greek (LXX) a couple of thousand years ago. The word used here is βιασαμενος which means to be forced, dominated, or constrained. Checking the Hebrew word and seeing how it has been translated into Greek in other instances in the OT, I can see that it always has to do with force or taking hold of. Sounds like rape to me, however, I am sure you will disagree but someone (spin!) will set you straight in the Hebrew, I am certain.

Or are you saying that taking hold of a woman somehow connotates a good thing in this context?

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Anyways rape was not accepted in Israel. When David's son raped his daughter Tamar, "She said no my brother do not FORCE (ANAH) me FOR SUCH A THING IS NOT DONE IN ISRAEL." Rape was not done in Israel because it was against THE LAW.

Well, you know, rape is against the law in the US, as well. I guess that means that rape doesn't happen here, which will come as a surprise to a lot of women that I know.

Quote:

You are confused. :wave:

Not really, but you might be.

Julian

Keith&Co. · 01-16-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

2. Scripture forbids the Kidnapping, and (forceful) selling, and holding of slaves:

Well, that's a contradiction, then.

If you have a Hebrew slave, you're to let him go after, what, five years?
But if he has a wife/kids, you don't have to let them go. That would be forceful holding.
And if he decides to stay with his family, then you nail an awl through his ear. And you keep him forever. That's forceful holding.

Oh, and the awl may contradict the 'no maiming slaves' thing, too.

During the Civil War, more than a few people in the North felt that the Books supported their abolitionist ideology, and that the war with the South was going to be the one in Revelation. God was going to prove that they were Right.
Of course, more than a few people in the South felt that the Books supported their slaver ideology, and that the war with the North was going to be the one in Revelation. God was going to prove that they were Right.

WishboneDawn · 01-16-2008, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapka

Leviticus is actually pretty clear about this: it's okay to buy slaves as long as they're of a different race from you.

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Leviticus 25:44-46.

Also, I'd like to know how you square your assumption in the OP that the rules that apply to free women also apply to slave women with Leviticus 19:20, stating that someone who has sex with your female slave shouldn't be punished, but the slave woman must be whipped.

Just a quibble. Race, as we know it, is a modern invention and wasn't a concern to ancient people and is out of place in a discussion about the OT. The Leviticus quote and others like it concern nations and tribes, a different kind of distinction.

makerowner · 01-16-2008, 07:15 PM

The idea that Deut. 22:28-9 refers to consensual sex is ridiculous. All the preceding rules are about rape, so don't you think that if this one wasn't, it would say so? The phrase "because he hath humbled her" is especially revealing. The word 'humbled' translates the Hebrew `anah elsewhere translated as 'afflict' and 'force'. The NLT, NIV, ESV, NASB, and RSV all translate it as 'violated'.
Are there any Biblical scholars who claim that this verse doesn't refer to rape?

Sheshonq · 01-16-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

2. Scripture forbids the Kidnapping, and (forceful) selling, and holding of slaves:
'He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand shall be put to death." Exodus 21:16 The Western Slave Trade was one of kidnapping forceful selling and holding of men women and children.

In point of fact, that reference is not to slaves, but to indentured servants. The start of Ch 21 makes that clear:

EXO 21:1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
EXO 21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

The rest of your slave references likewise refer to indentured servants.

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If the Jews were not allowed to kidnapp then establish a forced slave market then how would they get slaves?

By forcing the neighboring tribes into slavery.

LEV 25:44
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt
have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall
ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
LEV 25:45
Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn
among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you,
which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
LEV 25:46
And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children
after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen
for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule
one over another with rigour.

Slaves could be inherited as property, just like African slaves were inherited property in the Old South. Western-style slavery, only it was practiced in ancient Israel.

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According to the text people often sold them selves into slavery to pay off debts or simply because they were too poor. Such slavery is in fact hired servitude.

Indentured servitude was practiced by Hebrews against other Hebrews.

Actual western-style slavery was practiced by Hebrews against the other groups of non-Hebrew peoples surrounding them.

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And these people had rights in Israel where outside of Israel they had no rights at all. It was not barbaric like the Western Slave system.

1. These slaves did not have rights - you are confusing the indentured servitude of fellow Hebrews (who did have rights) with the life-long bondage of non-Hebrews.

2. Slaves in the old South did have some rights, although they were often ignored.

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2. Involuntary Slavery is condemned in the Bible. Those who said scripture supported this are in gross error. :wave:

Except that God himself told the Hebrews that it was OK to do it.

Hint: skeptics around here know the bible far better than you do.

ahdenai · 01-16-2008, 07:31 PM

why limit this to the OT? The new testament is a confused mess on the topic, with plenty of explicit material supporting slavery, and at best some vague statements that can be stretched into anti-slavery views. I'm particularly saddened by the second quote below, which to me seems to mean that a christian slave should work extra-hard for a christian master.

Ephesians: Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart

1 Timothy: Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit.

Jack the Bodiless · 01-17-2008, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

5. The rape of women whether slave or free was condemned. The raping of slaves by their masters in America was prevalent.
"But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field and the man force her, and lie with her then the man only that lay with her shall die." Deut. 22:25-26

In addition to all your other Biblical errors: there was no law against rape.

There WAS a law against adultery, however: and raping a married or betrothed woman would be adultery. Did you miss the word "betrothed" in the quote you provided?

Incidentally, raping a betrothed handmaid was a misdemeanour, not punishable by death (just give a ram to the priest as an offering and you'll be OK). This is because handmaids were sex-slaves anyhow, consent was not generally required. Non-betrothed handmaids were fair game, of course: no problem there, and the Bible contains examples of them being given to guests by their masters for explicitly sexual purposes.

Keith&Co. · 01-17-2008, 03:48 AM

Quote:

1. The curse of Ham was directed against the Canaanites, the Ethiopian Nubian peoples are not Canaanites, they descended from Cush, not Canaan. And the curse against Canaan was a prophesy showing he would be a servent to his brothers, not a right or support for forced slavery.

The curse was prophecy?
I'm so mad at you, i'm going to tell you the future of one of my many grandchildren? So there!

Dogfish · 01-17-2008, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Critics and christians (those who did not comply with scriptures) believes that the bible condoned the Western Slave Trade. But I have found some major differences they are:

1. The curse of Ham was directed against the Canaanites, the Ethiopian Nubian peoples are not Canaanites, they descended from Cush, not Canaan. And the curse against Canaan was a prophesy showing he would be a servent to his brothers, not a right or support for forced slavery.

2. Scripture forbids the Kidnapping, and (forceful) selling, and holding of slaves:
'He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand shall be put to death." Exodus 21:16 The Western Slave Trade was one of kidnapping forceful selling and holding of men women and children.

3. Slaves who were injured by their masters were to be set free:
"If a man strikes the eye of his male or female servant and destroys it, he shall let him go free for the sake of his eye. And if he knocks out the tooth of his male or female servant he shall let him go free for the sake of his tooth." Exodus 21: 26-27 Gee, I wonder how many slaves were maimed and injured in America?

4. Runaway slaves were not to be given back to their masters;
"You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; YOU SHALL NOT OPPRESS HIM." The Petty-Rollers were employed to capture and send back into slavery those slaves who desired freedom.

5. The rape of women whether slave or free was condemned. The raping of slaves by their masters in America was prevalent.
"But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field and the man force her, and lie with her then the man only that lay with her shall die." Deut. 22:25-26

And lastly but certainly not least was this commandment given to ALL CHRISTIANS by Jesus Himself:

"You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them (harsh rule) and their great ones exercise authority over them. Yet IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servent. And whoever of you desires to be first SHALL BE SLAVE OF ALL. FOR EVEN THE SON OF MAN DID NOT COME TO BE SERVED BUT TO SERVE......." Mark 10

"You call Me Teacher and Lord and you say well, for so I am. If I then your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. FOR I HAVE GIVEN YOU AN EXAMPLE THAT YOU SHOULD DO AS I HAVE DONE TO YOU." John 13. Christains are not to rule anyone with brutality and hardness for such goes against the example of Jesus (according to the text ofcourse

According to the evidence given the Western Slave Trade was not biblically supported. Those who chosed to interpret OT slaves laws to support Western Slavery did so out of greed....and not because the text says so....because it does not. :wave:

But since, as I have seen stated here ad nauseum, Jesus fulfilled the law, so the OT laws don't hold. So, it would be ok to kidnap.

WVIncagold · 01-17-2008, 07:40 AM

Not to mention that only a sick and twisted person would defend slavery in ANY form!

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01-16-2008, 07:15 PM	#14
makerowner Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,962	The idea that Deut. 22:28-9 refers to consensual sex is ridiculous. All the preceding rules are about rape, so don't you think that if this one wasn't, it would say so? The phrase "because he hath humbled her" is especially revealing. The word 'humbled' translates the Hebrew `anah elsewhere translated as 'afflict' and 'force'. The NLT, NIV, ESV, NASB, and RSV all translate it as 'violated'. Are there any Biblical scholars who claim that this verse doesn't refer to rape?

01-16-2008, 07:31 PM	#16
ahdenai Veteran Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: migrant worker, US Posts: 2,845	why limit this to the OT? The new testament is a confused mess on the topic, with plenty of explicit material supporting slavery, and at best some vague statements that can be stretched into anti-slavery views. I'm particularly saddened by the second quote below, which to me seems to mean that a christian slave should work extra-hard for a christian master. Ephesians: Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart 1 Timothy: Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit.

01-17-2008, 07:40 AM	#20
WVIncagold Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: West Virginina Posts: 4,349	Not to mention that only a sick and twisted person would defend slavery in ANY form!

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