Cesc

Probably to begin with. But in the Judaism we know there's the atonement sacrifice, where you lay your sins on the animal, then sacrifice it to become "clean" from sin. The Jesus-sacrifice would be of this order and not the fertility kind sacrifice you describe.

aa5874

If Jesus was God then there was NO sacrifice.

If JESUS was the WORD of God, then it must be obvious that the WORD of GOD did NOT DIE.

And if Jesus was just a man he was a BLASPHEMER. He PRETENDED to be a God. He was crucified UNDER the LAW and died for his OWN transgression.

Cesc

Yes, I guess thats true. And the crucifixion is still to be understood as an atonement sacrifice and not a fertility sacrifice.

Elijah

Do you know which text from the Gnostics that I should look at for this take?

Gawen

Curious. They couldn't have been practicing Jews. Jesus didn't fulfill the requirements of Messiahhood.

Elijah

Ideas evolve and Christianity's take on the messiah is an example of that. To assume that the idea couldn't have come from Jews would be implying that they all thought the same and can't evolve/expand any of their own ideas. But you are totally right that wasn't the commonly expected solution of the messiah.

mountainman

You might like to try the gJudas on for size, but before April Deconnick pointed out that the author of gJudas refers to Jesus and the apostles as "daimons", and not as "spirits". Jesus is cast as the head daimon before whom the apostles could not maintain eye contact. In any other words, the author of the gJudas depicts Jesus and the Apostles as part of this "demiurge" level of being.

But I think you will find that "this demiurge story as related to Jesus" that Toto refers to but "does not make alot of sense" is a negative story told by "christian apologists" about their detractors, the Gnostics -- who have been misunderstood and misrepresented up until the time before Deconnick pointed out that the gJudas is a parody and a satire against the orthodox.

This "story" and idea of Jesus as sacrifice left over from a heretical view of the Gnostics makes no sense whatsoever, since the "Good God" was always refered to as "Chrestos" by the orthodox. In fact, we all know how "Christos" and "Chrestos" have been hopelessly conflated in antiquity.

The OP correctly points out that the whole story of "THE SACRIFICE" is without any philosophical merit. We are dealing with "plain and simple religion of the christians" and they have been told WHAT to believe since the year 324/325 CE when the story was widely published and elevated to the purple as the Holy Writ and "story" of the Roman Empire. If you did not believe in this story at that time (and since) , then you were classified as a "heretic" by the "faithful followers" of the publication.

Petergdi

Christ's title of "Son of God" is a combination of several ideas packaged together.

(1) "Son of God" is a royal and messianic title - see Psalm 2

(2) God's children are those who do God's will, and Christ was uniquely obedient.

(3) The Word (Memra/Logos) through whom all things were made is the "first born son of God." The old Jewish Memra theology is already attached to Christ in Paul, and it appears to be a pre-pauline idea.

see: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...d=399&letter=M
Philo appears to have synthesized Platonic ideas of the Logos with Jewish Memra theology, and I don't think there is any good reason to suppose that Philo invented the "first-born son of God" aspect rather than having inherited it. I do not think it necessary to suppose that Paul or those who came before him in the movement were aware of Philo.

(4) We are all, as humans, children of God. This is made explicit in Luke's genealogy and where the Gospel of John has Jesus cite Psalm 82.

Peter.

Elijah

I don't see what Toto is saying in the GJudas. Maybe you could quote and explain.

The translation I looked at didn't translate it to "daimons" but demon is synonymous with a spirit and the head demon is synonomous with what Jesus was personifying, regardless if you saw it as the Logos or the Demiurge or if you believed there is only one spiritual element, God. A demon and the Demiurge aren't necessarily evil or the source of evil, but they are one of solutions given to the POE.

The GJudas doesn't look like a parody or satire to me but just another attempt to establish a different line of succession which helps validate a group's beliefs while cashing in on the Jesus popularity.

From the gospel of thomas: "And they] have planted trees without fruit, in my name, in a shameful manner.”

Anybody got an idea on if that is a literal occurrence?

Petergdi

The New Testament writers used vocabulary and metaphors that were familiar to their audience. We can't expect that the first idea that pops into our heads will always be the one intended. Some of the NT was written in Temple times and the rest soon afterwards, and there were many more Jews than Christians then.

Understanding everything is by no means essential to Christianity. Paul describes Christ's death and its significance in terms of obedience more often than he describes it in terms of sacrifice. If you understand what obedience is than you should be able to understand what Paul is saying.

Peter.