Amaleq13

IIRC, some scholars have suggested the caves were deliberately established libraries rather than hiding spots or living quarters.

judge

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Has it now become likely merely on the basis of Prof. Rachel Elior s new study of the subject? Isn t it a tad early to say it is now likely?

maryhelena

Don't know about that.......
Once the idea is out there......the meme, as Dawkins would have it......then who knows what sort of mutations might arise!
Separating the Essenes from Qumran, as now does seem to be the way to go, leaves the Essenes, as it were, floating free........

How Professor Elior is likely to handle the question of the Essenes in her book - well, we shall just have to wait. However, two of her recent responses to her critics have been posted in this thread.

Clivedurdle

But there is in other languages!

What is an academic doing using considered terms like unthinkable?

It is not contrary to the Torah to beat your swords into plowshares or attempt to live the vegetarian life described in the Garden of Eden. The Essenes are displaying core Judaic motifs!

Plenty of people wrote about them!

And the reason nothing is in Hebrew might simply be because this was a Greek Jewish sect - there were loads of Greek speaking Jews in Canaan!

She seems to have no understanding that Judaism then was really a Greek cult!

And why is archaeology a no go zone for her?

maryhelena

Josephus says of the Essenes:
Wikipedia on Pythagoras
Essenes living the same kind of life as the Pythagoreans?
The Pythagorean women were treated as the equal to men - being allowed to function on equal terms in their society. And the Essenes? Methinks no modern woman would put up with her lot in an Essene community!

So what is Josephus up to here with this attempt at a comparison of the two societies? He goes on in Book 18 ch.1.......

The connection between the Pythagoreans and the Essenes is not a similarity between how they view women - the similarity that Josephus wants to emphasise has to do with numbers. In this case the use of numbers by Menahem in his prophecy regarding Herod the Great.

Wikipedia again:


Josephus, unlike Philo, has credited his Essenes with prophecy, with the ability to predict future events. (Philo was, himself, interested in number symbolism). Josephus has placed his Essenes within an overall 170 year period. Individually, he placed his prophetic Essenes in 70 year periods. Judas in 104/103 b.c. Menahem in 34 b.c. Simon in 6 c.e. – 70 years from 63 b.c. He also used the 100 year period - from Menahem’ prophecy in 34/33 b.c. to the fall of Jotapata in 67 c.e. and his own prophecy that year regarding Vespasian.

(Josephus probably applied the 100 year cycle in regard to the prophecy regarding Vespasian - that he would be the new Roman ruler in 68 c.e. - 100 years from the of Battle of Actium in 31 b.c. 100 for the dynasty of Augustus).

The connection between Josephus’ Essenes and the Pythagoreans community highlights Josephus’ interest in prophetic or symbolic numbers. All the numbers dealing with the Essenes, from their 4000 population (a population that never grew from Philo’s time) to their living over 100 years, to their connection to the 70 year cycles, does indicate that the Josephus is using the Essenes as part of his overall prophetic interpretation, or understanding, of Jewish history.

Josephus , by referencing Pythagoras, is indicating that he is playing the numbers game, that “everything could be predicted and measured in rhythmic patterns or cycles” - even to the re-cycling of Philo’ philosophical Essenes as ‘historical’ Essenes.

Clivedurdle

You are missing the gnostic roots - equality, although never achieved was a key part of this utopian thinking. Lions laying down with lambs, swords and plowshares, Adam and Eve - men and women getting on with each other.

We have the ingrained assumptions of Catholicism very strongly in our culture. Hypatia is the classic example of what "pagan" thinking was doing. And there is a long history of seriously powerful women in many cultures and places.

The gnostics who had no problem with women were alleged to be heretical and violently suppressed - Paul with clear gnostic leanings was deliberately altered.

Something wrong there?

spin

And boy was that dumb. Schiffman contemplated it for a while, but hopefully he forgot about it. These caves were in cliff faces and other rather inconvenient locations. Libraries usually mean a reading "public", but how does such a public -- wherever it came from -- easily access the books? Qumran had a small population -- a few dozen at the most. Remember for example, there were over 30 copies of Deuteronomy....

(People did seem to live in the various caves down the Dead Sea coast and the hinterland during times of danger, though no-one lived in them under normal circumstances.)


spin

maryhelena

My point is simply that the Pythagonans got the male/female thing right over 500 years before Josephus put pen to paper - hence his comparison between the Pythagorans and his 'historical' Essenes has nothing to do with the life style, the actual living arrangements, of the two groups - but has everything to do with the emphasis the Pythagorans placed upon numbers.

By making such an obvious contradiction between the life style of his 'historical' Essenes and the Pythagorans - a contradiction that would be obvious to anyone if his Essenes were historical - he has simply raised the bar, raised the bar from an historical playing field to a playing field of pure numbers. Ultimate reality.....

Wikipedia quote:

".....that numbers were the ultimate reality and, through mathematics, everything could be predicted and measured in rhythmic patterns or cycles".

Clivedurdle

Please explain the archaeology then!

maryhelena

If there is an archaeological answer to be made regarding Rachel Elior' position on the Essenes i.e. that they were a Josephan invention - then I'm sure there are those more able than myself that will make it.....

In the meantime, while no such archaeological refutation has been forthcoming, its a bit of an open season re Josephus and his 'historical' Essenes....

For those who, like myself, are in the mythological camp, Rachel Elior' position on the Essenes is a bit like an unexpected gift. On a personal level, I've had my eye on Josephus for some time.......never, of course, thinking along the lines that the Essenes were not historical. If Rachel Elior' position can be substantiated then the floodgates, as it were, will be open wide for a re-examination of the gospel story line - and a possible Josephan connection to that story. The old adage - follow the money - takes on new meaning here - follow the numbers........