Starboy

Now do I have fidelity to my promises? Yes. If I don't keep my promises people will not trust me. Do I have trust or loyalty to god? No. I don't believe there is a god. Do I have complete trust in anything? No, I'm a scientist, I can always be wrong. Do I have fidelity without doubt or question? No. I was raised an American. We don't go in for the infallible king or leader horse pucky. As far as I can tell faith is for Christian robots.

Starboy

Greeph

I certainly have no intent to suggest that athiests and agnostics do not have fidelity. Or faith in a general sense. I suppose I should have been more explicit and referred to "faith in God". Although I suppose there are those who would argue the athiest position is also one of faith -- faith that there is no God. And then perhaps the agnostic is the only "faithless" position in relation to existence of a god?

But at this point in my agnosticism, I am more interested in how the concept of "hope in a god" fits into the picture. Are there those out there who have "hope in a god" at the same time they have "no faith in a god". In other words, are there athiests or agnostics who take an approach of "I don't believe in god, but I hope I am wrong."? That is where I find myself at.

Starboy

I think you will find that many atheists would not agree with your definition of atheism - "faith that there is no God". They would say, myself included, that atheism is a-theism or, lack of, or, without, theism. This is not a claim about theism but simply a condition of no theism, just as bald is not necessarily a condition that opposes hair but simply a condition without hair. Such a definition would cover all atheists. There are then those that take a stronger position and would claim that there are no god(s) of a particular kind. My guess is that in this case both you and I are atheists when it comes to Zeus. There are then atheists that claim that there are no god(s) of any kind. Some call this strong atheism. I personally find this to be a presumptuous position and completely unnecessary. Those that claim that a particular god exists are welcome to trot it out and show it off. If all they can produce looks exactly like it would if it were Zeus of any other god we both do not believe in then as far as I am concerned you are very likely to be as deluded as those other believers.

Pardon me if I say that your questions are a little whacky. They make no sense if one lacks a belief in god. You might as well ask if they have 'hope in Zeus' or 'hope in Zuul'. It is only those that would believe that such gods are real that could even conceive of hoping in them. It sounds to me that you are an agnostic theist. You see agnostic and atheism are about two different things, knowing and believing. To be an a-gnostic is to be one that lacks knowledge. To be an a-theist is to be one that lacks belief. You can be a

gnostic theist - knows and believes
agnostic theist - doesn't know but believes
gnostic atheist - knows and doesn't believe
agnostic atheist - doesn't know or believe

Starboy

Grumsh

first:

it’s

Theist: Love, Hope, Faith
Agnostic: Love, Hope
Atheists: Love

(The belief in a god of worship is not limited to the Christian Religion, and I would like to believe that Buddhist, Jews, and Muslims (Just to name a few) share similar ideals of Faith that Christians do.)

Another note:

Well this is a bit demeaning to Agnostic and Atheists don't you think?

I think Agnostic have Faith.

It's just a matter of in What?

Do they have Faith that the breaks of their car will work if they press on that little peddle on the floor?

I would hope so.

There is no Guarantee that they will work, but they have Faith that the person that designed them, knew what they were doing.

Thus they are willing to drive 90MPH down the high way.

I would like to believe that Atheists have not given up hope, simply because they do not believe in a "Deity�?. They can still Hope for many things. They hope to find Love, they hope that their family will be ok, they Hope that things go well on a job interview.

Theism is not a requirement for Hope, or Faith.

It all about, what you Hope for, and what you have Faith in.

Grumsh.

Greeph

Based on your definitions, I would disagree with your opinion that I am an agnostic theist. I don't believe that the god Jehovah exists. Nor Allah, nor Zeus, nor any other god which has resulted from various people's preferred attributes of an immortal being. As far as unknown god(s), I would have to say "I don't know." So I don't see myself as any type of a theist.

But hope, that is different from knowledge and different from belief. I hope there is an immortal being -- one that is "good" and "knows me" and "cares for me" and can make me "immortal." I would suspect that this particular hope is a very common hope of many people, and very much responsible for the gods that mankind has invented over the years. Is it really necessary to shed this hope in order to be agnostic or athiest?

I have no problem with the Theist replacement of Christian, especially for the religions mentioned. I felt safer using Christian based on my past experience, and did not know if "faith, hope, and love" are a basis of all theists' religions.

Yes, as I mentioned in some other replies, I should have been more specific and used the terms "faith in a god" and "hope in a god" instead of the generic term. I apologize to any who felt demeaned by my generalization -- I agree faith and hope are not "owned" by theists.

My questions at the moment pertain to "faith in a god" and "hope in a god". I would ask it again in this way:

Do any of the agnostics or athiests here have "hope in a god"? I am not a theist, but I have hope that there is a "good god." Are there others?

Starboy

I never said that you did know that god exists, but in order to hope that god exists requires you to implicitly believe that god could exist. There is no point in hoping for something that you do not believe could happen or be. As for not being an atheist, you are only speaking from ignorance. I'll bet that if you were to study the god(s) people have believed in and currently believe in there would be at least one of two that you would say that you definitely do not believe in. But you do not need to pass that test to be an atheist. As a matter of fact simply lacking belief in gods you do not know about will do it and I am sure that there have been thousands if not tens of thousands of gods that people have believed in that both you and I do not know of. Only those that believe in all the possible gods that there could ever be could claim to not be an atheist. Nobody does this.

Now as for shedding hope in regards to being an atheist or agnostic that is a pile of bullocks. It all depends on what you are hoping for. I can hope for a new scientific discovery and you could hope for a miracle from god. Each of us has exposed our presumed beliefs by what we hope for. The mere fact that I hope has got nothing to do with a god and visa versa. Hope is just an emotional expression of optimism, but not what you are optimistic about. Since you appear to confuse hope with god or at least lean heavily in that direction I would say that you are an agnostic theist.

Starboy

robtech

And you have responded to several of mine. I apologize for this presumption but I have a disernment that you have a lot of bitterness in your being. Am I right?

Starboy

No, not bitterness at all, more like moral indignation. To put it into terms that you might understand it is sorta like the kind of indignation that Jesus is purported to have felt when he tried to throw the money changers out of the temple. You see I have no problem with people peacefully practicing their particular beliefs as long as they can do it in a respectful, lawful and constitutional way, in a way consistent with the freedom loving principals of this country. This is not the norm for Christians. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Christians as of late have decided that it is not enough that they should be free to practice their religion and the behavior it advocates for themselves and their families, they have decided that it should be the law of the land for everyone no matter what they believe. This is an arrogant, thoughtless, hostile, ignorant, oppressive point of view. It is getting me angry at asshole Christians just thinking about it. And I know that there are Christians that understand that "Christian values" are for Christians and should not be imposed by law onto everyone, but they are such a tiny, tiny minority. I also understand that those that aggressively campaign for the imposition of "Christian values" on everyone are at this time a minority, not a small minority but a minority none the less. Then there are the rest which are enablers, the neither vocally oppose nor support the imposition of "Christian values", but by their allegiance to their religion and their silence they enable the asshole Christians and by such tacit approval become assholes themselves, besides somebody had to vote the Bushes into office. Now since you are at an atheist site and I do not see you trying to find common ground but instead are trying to covertly convert people to your particular take on reality, I would have to place you into the “you are part of the problem�? category. Have a nice day.

Starboy

robtech

That was very interesting. Your assumption of my intentions seems to be biased. Belief is a personal choice. Just as you and everyone else here, I'm only expressing my belief without trying to impose it on others. Isn't that the pinnacle of atheism?

Starboy

Please pardon my knee jerk reaction. You see so many Christians are assholes. Just turn on the TV or read the paper. Oh, just so that you know, there is no pinnacle of atheism.

Starboy