Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 04-10-2009, 06:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Amaleq13

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Your statement is absolutely illogical and unreasonable.

Why do you keep pretending you understand logic when that is clearly not the case? :banghead:

Logically, Philo's statement can only be argued to represent the view of Philo and those who chose him to represent them. Not all Jews. Understand?

Why don't you read the passage.Excerpts of Antiquities of the Jews18.8.1

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1. THERE was now a tumult arisen at Alexandria, between the Jewish inhabitants and the Greeks; and three ambassadors were chosen out of each party that were at variance, who came to Caius............

for that while all who were subject to the Roman empire built altars and temples to Caius, and in other regards universally received him as they received the gods,

these Jews alone thought it a dishonorable thing for them to erect statues in honor of him, as well as to swear by his name..........

This is just basic stuff. Philo is the lead-man in the Jewish team to talk to Gaius about Jewish tradition where the Jews do not worship images and men as Gods.

fatpie42 · 04-10-2009, 07:24 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

You are the one who made specific statements about false messiahs in Josephus.

I was taking it for granted that this wouldn't be the first time you had heard about them.

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Where in Josephus were false messiahs treated as divine?

Naturally Josephus doesn't treat them as divine precisely because he considers them 'false' messiahs. However, I would take it as read that if you expect someone to be able to perform magical feats with the help of God, they must be believed to have some element of divinity. So, if you really want an example, how about The Egyptian?
http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah...aimants09.html

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Originally Posted by aa5874

The false messiahs were like Paul's Jesus? Where in Josephus?

All over the place. Josephus speaks of several messianic claimants. I suppose they are different in that they expected to have to work to achieve their goal of emancipating the Jews while Jesus just expects some huge apocalyptic event to do the work. Same goes for Paul in the form of the expected 'second coming'.

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Originally Posted by aa5874

This is Paul's Jesus as proposed in Romans 1.1-4

Indeed it is. And?

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Originally Posted by aa5874

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Originally Posted by fatpie42

Moses and Elijah in the Tanakh ought to be adequate proof. They were believed to have divine power, but they were not believed to be gods.

Now, surely these are not the false messiahs in Josephus?

No, but they are human beings who were viewed as divine by the Jews, as I already stated. As such, there was already a precedent for considering human beings to be divine and capable of performing miraculous feats.

fatpie42 · 04-10-2009, 07:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Amaleq13

This is, of course, setting aside the other fundamentally flawed assumption of your position (ie that early Christians were expected to worship a man as God).

Ah, I wondered whether they were presuming that. It seemed rather flawed to me too.

aa5874 · 04-10-2009, 08:32 PM

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Originally Posted by fatpie42

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Originally Posted by aa5874

You are the one who made specific statements about false messiahs in Josephus.

I was taking it for granted that this wouldn't be the first time you had heard about them.

First time I am hearing about false divine messiahs in Josephus.

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Originally Posted by Fatpie42

Naturally Josephus doesn't treat them as divine precisely because he considers them 'false' messiahs.

You wrote this.

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Originally Posted by fatpie42

......but treating certain men as divine was not frowned upon by Jews otherwise the false messiahs which Josephus refers to would never have found a following.

Again where in Josephus do the Jewish followers treat the false messiahs as divine?

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Now, surely these are not the false messiahs in Josephus?

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Originally Posted by fatpie42

No, but they are human beings who were viewed as divine by the Jews, as I already stated. As such, there was already a precedent for considering human beings to be divine and capable of performing miraculous feats.

We are dealing with the false messiahs in Josephus that were supposed to be treated as divine, now you have switched to Moses and Elijah.

Were Moses and Elijah executed for blasphemy and were they sacrificed to the God of the Jews for salvation?

Doug Shaver · 04-11-2009, 07:16 AM

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Originally Posted by fatpie42

I just don't understand why you are asking for that.

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Originally Posted by Amaleq13

He doesn't understand the logic of the burden of proof.

It would seem that for all X, aa does not understand the logic of X.

fatpie42 · 04-11-2009, 07:33 AM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Again where in Josephus do the Jewish followers treat the false messiahs as divine?

I already gave you the example of the Egyptian. What was wrong with that? I'll spell it out for you a little more clearly, okay?

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There was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives. He was ready to break into Jerusalem by force from that place; and if he could but once conquer the Roman garrison and the people, he intended to rule them by the assistance of those guards of his that were to break into the city with him.
[Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.261-262]

In his Jewish antiquities, Josephus retold the story. The number of followers seems to be less exaggerated and the prophet's threat to use violence are ignored.

about this time, someone came out of Egypt to Jerusalem, claiming to be a prophet. He advised the crowd to go along with him to the Mount of Olives, as it was called, which lay over against the city, and at the distance of a kilometer. He added that he would show them from hence how the walls of Jerusalem would fall down at his command, and he promised them that he would procure them an entrance into the city through those collapsed walls.
[Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.169-171]

http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah...aimants09.html

So as you can see The Egyptian was claiming to be chosen by God and to have special godly powers. That is all that Jesus ever claims within the gospels too.

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Originally Posted by aa5874

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Originally Posted by fatpie42

No, but they are human beings who were viewed as divine by the Jews, as I already stated. As such, there was already a precedent for considering human beings to be divine and capable of performing miraculous feats.

We are dealing with the false messiahs in Josephus that were supposed to be treated as divine, now you have switched to Moses and Elijah.

Were Moses and Elijah executed for blasphemy and were they sacrificed to the God of the Jews for salvation?

What are you trying to say?

No, Moses and Elijah weren't claimed to have been sacrificed and neither were any of the messiahs that were described by Josephus. I didn't think that was the point here. Your point appeared to be that the Jews never treated humans as divine, so I was countering that point.

I can quite easily imagine now that if I were to find a figure in Jewish history or mythology who was sacrificed to God for blasphemy you would then be asking me whether they were claimed to have been born of a virgin and/or risen from the dead. So perhaps you could make clearer what point you are trying to make?

aa5874 · 04-11-2009, 08:52 AM

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Originally Posted by fatpie42

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Again where in Josephus do the Jewish followers treat the false messiahs as divine?

I already gave you the example of the Egyptian. What was wrong with that? I'll spell it out for you a little more clearly, okay?

Do you know the difference between a cheat, a prophet, and the divine? In Josephus there is mention of an Egyptian prophet who was a cheat, not an Egyptian God or entity of divinty.

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Originally Posted by fatpie42

So as you can see The Egyptian was claiming to be chosen by God and to have special godly powers. That is all that Jesus ever claims within the gospels too.

What godly powers did the Egyptian cheat/prophet have? He had thirty thousand duped followers with him and would have used force to enter Jerusalem. See Wars of the Jews.

That is all Jesus claimed? Look at Mark 9:31 -

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For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

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Originally Posted by fatpie42

No, Moses and Elijah weren't claimed to have been sacrificed and neither were any of the messiahs that were described by Josephus. I didn't think that was the point here. Your point appeared to be that the Jews never treated humans as divine, so I was countering that point.

You are the one who introduced Moses and Elijah in the discussion as divine. Now tell where was Moses and Elijah worsipped as Gods like Jesus and Caius whose images were also worshipped?

Amaleq13 · 04-11-2009, 09:01 AM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

This is just basic stuff.

Yes I agree. Recognizing the difference between describing traditions, describing the way some Jews interpreted them, and the foolish notion that all Jews felt the same way should be rather basic.

aa5874 · 04-11-2009, 10:30 AM

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Originally Posted by Amaleq13

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Originally Posted by aa5874

This is just basic stuff.

Yes I agree. Recognizing the difference between describing traditions, describing the way some Jews interpreted them, and the foolish notion that all Jews felt the same way should be rather basic.

You mean Philo had a foolish notion about Jewish tradion or was it the people who choose him to represent them in Rome?

This is Josephus in Antiquities of the Jews 18.8.1

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.....these Jews alone thought it a dishonorable thing for them to erect statues in honor of him, as well as to swear by his name.....

Just name a Jew living in Alexandria at the time of Gaius who did not have the same view as Philo with respect to the worship of images and men as Gods and stop wasting time.

Just name a Jew living in Alexandria at th time of Gaius who did not want Philo to represent him or her at Rome.

This just basic stuff. Stop wasting time.

According to the NT, Jesus may have been executed for blasphemy, perhaps he did not know the views of the Jews.

Amaleq13 · 04-11-2009, 11:51 AM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

You mean Philo had a foolish notion about Jewish tradion or was it the people who choose him to represent them in Rome?

Neither. I've said nothing about any notion being "foolish". Read more carefully. I've been trying to explain why it is logically fallacious to generalize the stated view to all Jews. You seem more interested in retaining your beliefs than in improving your understanding of logic. Are you sure you're not a fundamentalist Christian?

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Just name a Jew living in Alexandria at the time of Gaius who did not have the same view as Philo with respect to the worship of images and men as Gods and stop wasting time.

If you understood logic, you would understand this is not necessary. It appears to be a waste of time to expect you to think logically. You didn't even bother to read the link explaining the fallacy of Hasty Generalization, did you?

None of this is ultimately relevant since the fundamental premise upon which it is based is flawed.

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