Sven

OK, I can't argue with this kind of logic.

Once and for all: We should blame the Bible for allowing it explicitely.

Gullwind

This brings up an interesting question.

If the bible specifically stated that slavery was wrong and immoral, would it have been allowed in the US? Would it ever have become as prevalent as it did without the bible's support?

inquisitive01

Where in the Bible does it say "slavery is explicitely allowed?"


Since it was actually MAN supporting the idea of slavery all along, what do you think?

Sven

We were talking about treating slaves badly, not slavery in general. And if you don't understand that the verse in question explicitely allows to treat slaves badly (beat them so much that they need two days to recover), than any discussion is futile.

Since the bible actually never said anything against it, but implicetly allowed it by regulating some affairs in verses like the one in question, what do you think about the bible?

Not_Registered

Mabye we can all agree on something.

Do we all agree that a police officer is allowed to make arrest?
(simple question, simple answer)

I've always wanted to be a phrophet and I think I've just had a vision. I foresee several people not answering the question, saying the question is irrelevant, circumventing the question, and ignoring the question altogether. Hummmmmmmmmmm. Hummmmmmmmm. Yeeees, the vision is growing clearer by the second.

Angrillori

Ok, I'm going to ask Not_Registered a question:

When did you stop beating your wife?

I predict he won't answer in a simple and straightforward way.

I also predict he won't stop asking loaded questions and committing the complex question fallacy.

Angrillori

As for the bible explicitly endorsing slavery:

Leviticus 25:44
" 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.


Second, it also explicitly shows what behaviour towards your slave is acceptable: beatings near unto death, as long as the fellow can regain his feet after one or two days.

Third, it never condemns, nor orders gods people NOT to have slaves.

Taking slaves might have been the "norm" in them parts, but why does the "norm" dictate god's morality? Is it relative to the norm?

Any reason Leviticus couldn't include:

"I am the Lord your god, and I command you not to have slaves. I know it is the norm to have slaves, but I command this anyways. Moreover, I command you to treat women as humans, and allow them to speak for and represent themselves. I know this isn't the norm here, but do it anyways. Moreover, I command you to abolish the monarchy and institute a representative democracy, under which all members of your tribe have a voice in their governance, and under which individuals freedoms and rights are guaranteed. I know this also isn't the norm, but I command you to do so anyways."

?

Gullwind

What happened to the bible being inspired by God? This is supposed to be God's own words to the Israelites. That's the situation in Leviticus 25. This isn't supposed to be man's ideas at all. These are the commands of the Lord himself.


As for the police officer question, as long as the arrest is made according to the rules and regulations established to control that action, then yes, a police officer can make an arrest.

The difference is that the majority of the world does not believe that making an arrest in general is immoral.

Angrillori

Well, to make it anywhere NEAR an appropritae analogy you would have to include beatings by those in power, of those not in power, you would have to include the only imprisonable offence being born into a foreign country, you would have to make prisoners all under a life sentence, and would have to make the prisoners children also serve life sentences forever.

P1) IF these were the case, THEN yours would be a good analogy.
P2) These are not the case.
C) Yours is not a good analogy.

As I pointed out, IF a prison were like biblical slavery (or, owned servants whom you can beat, will to your family when you die, and whose children you will own into perpetuity if that's the term you prefer) THEN it would be bad.


Glad I didn't commit any crime which the social contract I'm entered into with my government declared would be punished by a life sentence. Notice the difference:

1) I had the choice to be imprisoned--don't do the crime, don't do the time.
2) Slaves (or, owned servants whom you can beat near unto death, whose children you also own and who will remain owned by your family even after you die) didn't have that choice.
3) Slavery was always a life sentnce, and extended into later generations.
4) Prison sentences vary based on the crime you chose to commit to be imprisoned.
5) Guards are not allowed to beat prisoners near unto death.
6) Slave owners are allowed to beat their slaves near unto death.

But most importantly, #1. I choose to enjoy the protection and benefits of the US government. Part of that choice is a choice to follow its rules. If I choose not to follow those rules, then in exchange for enjoying the benefits of the US government, I am choosing to be imprisoned for terms which that government has established.

It's called citizenship, or a social contract.

A Midianite, captured by Hebrews, doesn't seem to be quite the same eh?

Are you kidding? See above. See if a slave (or owned servant whom you can beat, sell, and will to your children) has the option to quit and find employment elsewhere. Also see if my employer has the right to beat me near unto death without repurcussions.

NIV does.

The word slave could potentially mean many things. In a biblical sense, it means a servant who is owned, who can be bought and sold, who can be beaten near unto death, who can be willed to further relatives if you die, and whose children are also slaves.

And, the point is, the bible explicitly condones the beating of slaves (or, servants owned, whom you could beat, will to future generations, and whose children you own), the mistreatment of them.

I would blame the fellow who says: "It's ok to have slaves and to beat them, so go to town!"

Hmm, that was the bible!

Hobbs

That's hardly a difficult prophecy to make: you make irrelevant comments to circumvent a question that makes you too uncomfortable to face because you know you can't answer it, or you know the answer is one you don't like and don't want to have to admit or face, and people will call you on it. Hell, anyone could have predicted that!