Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nic Tamzek · 08-14-2003, 12:33 PM

A not-very-encouraging interview with Mel Gibson's parents:

Quote:

On our first night together, he nursed a mug of sassafras tea while leading a four-hour tutorial on so-called sedevacantism, which holds that all the popes going back to John XXIII in the 1950's have been illegitimate -- ''anti-popes,'' he called them. As Hutton explained it, the conservative cardinal Giuseppe Siri was probably passed over for pope in 1958 in favor of a more reform-minded candidate. Hutton said Cardinal Siri was duly elected, but was forced to step aside by conspirators inside and outside the church. These shadowy enemies might have threatened ''to atom-bomb the Vatican City,'' he said. In another conversation, he told me that the Second Vatican Council was ''a Masonic plot backed by the Jews.''

The intrigue got only murkier and more menacing from there. The next day after church, over a plate of roast beef at a buffet joint off the highway, conversation turned to the events of Sept. 11. Hutton flatly rejected that Al Qaeda hijackers had anything to do with the attacks. ''Anybody can put out a passenger list,'' he said.

So what happened? ''They were crashed by remote control,'' he replied.

He moved on to the Holocaust, dismissing historical accounts that six million Jews were exterminated. ''Go and ask an undertaker or the guy who operates the crematorium what it takes to get rid of a dead body,'' he said. ''It takes one liter of petrol and 20 minutes. Now, six million?''

Across the table, Joye suddenly looked up from her plate. She was dressed in a stylish outfit for church, wearing a leather patchwork blazer and a felt beret in place of the traditional headdress. She had kept quiet most of the day, so it was a surprise when she cheerfully piped in. ''There weren't even that many Jews in all of Europe,'' she said.

''Anyway, there were more after the war than before,'' Hutton added.

The entire catastrophe was manufactured, said Hutton, as part of an arrangement between Hitler and ''financiers'' to move Jews out of Germany. Hitler ''had this deal where he was supposed to make it rough on them so they would all get out and migrate to Israel because they needed people there to fight the Arabs,'' he said.

quoted here:
http://www.yourish.com/archives/2003...tml#2003031101

Originally here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/09/ma...t&position=top

Toto · 08-19-2003, 03:55 PM

Gibson Says He Has 'Softened' Crucifixion Story in New Jesus Movie

Quote:

Director Mel Gibson, under heavy fire from Jewish groups for his $25 million movie on the death of Jesus, has "softened the story" and made changes to make "The Passion" more palatable to critics, according to a spokesman. Scheduled for release next year during Lent, "The Passion" has some Jewish groups nervous it will resurrect old beliefs that Jews were responsible for the death of the Christian savior.

Paul Lauer, marketing director for Gibson's Icon Productions company, said Gibson has edited the film to show more "sympathetic" Jewish characters who were not calling for Jesus to be crucified. "We believe we have softened the story compared to the way the Gospel has told it," Lauer said in an interview. He pointed to Matthew 27:25, in which the Jewish mob calls for Jesus' blood "to be on us and on our children." "That's in the Gospel," he said. "It's not in our film."

JoeWallack · 08-26-2003, 06:52 AM

PASSION Created by ELIZA BETH ANONYMOUSE was introduced in ?AD (even though the "AD" designation is long before the supposed AD event). This fine smell contains jewsmine, beggaming the question, ruse and is accented with tuberrosery, vaniller vicery and mush making PASSION perfect for formal abuse.

JW:
Before we consider whether Mel Gibson and the John Birch tree,
Holocaust and 911 denying father he fell from are just more of a long line of Liars for Jesus, let's look at some of Mel's quotes in order to decide if after 2,000 years we're finally too old for his shit:

http://www.christiancinema.com/cata....newsdesk_id=20

"ROME, MARCH 6, 2003 (Zenit.org).- Oscar winning actor-director Mel Gibson is in Rome these days, working on a film on the passion of Christ at the Cinecitt� studios.

(Intermission -
The movie focuses on the last hours of Christ's life and stars
Jim Caviezel ("The Thin Red Line," "Angel Eyes," "The Count of Monte Cristo") as Jesus. Gibson granted the following exclusive interview to ZENIT...

"This film will show the passion of Jesus Christ just the way it
happened. It's like traveling back in time and watching the
events unfold exactly as they occurred."

(Intermissionize - Blood Libel Charges)

Q: How can you be sure that your version is so accurate?

Gibson: "We've done the research. I'm telling the story as
the Bible tells it. I think the story, as it really happened, speaks
for itself. The Gospel is a complete script, and that's what
we're filming."

(Intermissionize - Pograms)

"When you're dealing with non-fiction, a director's
responsibility is to make it as accurate as possible."

(Intermissionize - Inquisition)

But if you hear the words spoken as they were spoken at the time, it can kind of stun you.

(Intermissionize - Holocaust)

JW:
It's a HISTORICAL FACT that "The Passion" has been used by REAL Christians to murder innocent Jews for the last 2,000 years and that if you add up the numbers you'll find that more Jews have died in the last 2,000 years as a result of being murdered by Christians than have died from Natural causes. But is "The Passion" itself a historical fact? That's THE question.

Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Errors...hristian_Bible

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/abdulreis/myhomepage/

CJD · 08-26-2003, 10:44 AM

read this somewheres online:

Quote:

Of all the comments made about Mel Gibson, writer and director of the forthcoming film, "The Passion," I don't recall anyone calling him stupid. Along with all the commotion, Mr. Gibson has generated publicity and public interest worth millions-- and spent very little cash in the process.__In the rush to praise, trash, encourage or denounce a movie that is not even completed, I'm surprised that no one has yet pointed out that this kind of response is probably exactly what an experienced producer and promoter of motion pictures, like Mr. Gibson, hoped to ignite.

I have a sneaky suspicion that Mr. Gibson will release exactly the film he always intended.__By stirring up protest prior to completion, then "caving in" and agreeing to changes in the rough cut, he heads off much of the protest and concern, while stoking the public appetite for a film that initially, would probably been of interest to a fairly small audience, by Hollywood standards.__It appears Mr. Gibson is playing a couple of moves ahead of the rest of us.__Can't fault the man for playing the game well.

Now that everyone is paying attention, I hope they are not too disappointed when Mr. Gibson takes his $25 million and produces a film that is in accord with his personal beliefs, opinions, and view of history. . . .

Let's be careful not to associate Mr. Gibson's little endeavor with Christianity over against a capitalistic venture, okay?

Regards,

CJD

08-27-2003, 05:15 AM

From someone who has seen the film:

UK Spectator article

I think that Nic and the writer of the above article are right. It's Christianity the critics don't like (as is very clear around here) and anti-Semitism is just a smoke screen.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

RED DAVE · 08-27-2003, 07:59 AM

Having read the article, but, of course, not seen the film, I'll suspend judgment. However, it is my belief that the core myth of xtianity is inherently antisemitic and to release this film at this time is provocative.

The tone of the article reminds me of the defense that Dorothy Sayers used concerning her play "The Man Born to Be King." Xtians just don't get it!

RED DAVE

CJD · 08-27-2003, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Xtians just don't get it!

What non-Anglo-Saxon Christians like myself don't get, RED, is how insensitively flippant people like you are with accusations of prejudice. It reminds me of Spong speaking at the last Lambeth conference to his opponents in Africa in a rather condescending tone as "more limited in their experience" and susceptible to "superstition." If this jerk actually believed in the gospel message, you can bet he would have been defrocked on the spot, and labeled as a racist for the rest of his days.

The fraudulent piety it takes to cast such aspersions really makes my blood boil.

CJD

Layman · 08-27-2003, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bede
From someone who has seen the film:

UK Spectator article

I think that Nic and the writer of the above article are right. It's Christianity the critics don't like (as is very clear around here) and anti-Semitism is just a smoke screen.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Very true, Bede. For many secularists and cultural leftists, the charge that Christianity, and especially the Passion Narratives, are inherently anti-semitic is just another weapon with which to bash Christianity.

The heroes of Gibson's film, Jesus and Mary, are Jews. His disciples were Jews. Paul was a Jew. The gospel authors, Luke aside, were Jews. The vast majority of our holy book is the Hebrew Bible.

Vorkosigan · 08-27-2003, 10:55 PM

Very true, Bede. For many secularists and cultural leftists, the charge that Christianity, and especially the Passion Narratives, are inherently anti-semitic is just another weapon with which to bash Christianity.

LOL. The truth of Christian anti-semitism is painful, ain't it? Fact is, Gibson got ambushed by Christians, Layman. This controversy is just another tree in the limitless savannah of Christians savaging Christians.

What non-Anglo-Saxon Christians like myself don't get, RED, is how insensitively flippant people like you are with accusations of prejudice. It reminds me of Spong speaking at the last Lambeth conference to his opponents in Africa in a rather condescending tone as "more limited in their experience" and susceptible to "superstition."

Have you actually been to Africa? Spong's article is an accurate description of the way Christianity has played itself out in Africa. Since rational discussion of this topic is unlikely as you have already implied everyone who has thoughtful responses to the naive, fundamentalist, and authoritarian versions of Christianity promulgated in Africa is some kind of racist, I will make no further comments. Perhaps Jacob Aliet or Celsus would like to add something.

Or we could just go over to AllAfrica.com, and read the many stories...

Gov't requests witch doctors in fight against rebels

"A recent meeting between a Government minister and witchdoctors to discuss the use of magical powers to dispel the Lords Resistance Army (LRA), a rebel group, underlines growing concern that the Government is desperate to fight the insurgents, whose menace has spread eastwards, from their northern territory.

Defence Minister, Ruth Nankabirwa, met the Uganda Traditional Healers Association, led by their chairman, Ben Gulu, and asked for help over the LRA matter.

"Since Kony uses spirits, it is appropriate that witchdoctors cast their spell and defeat Kony," Nankabirwa is reported to have said."

No doubt this African reporter Crespo Sebunya is a flaming anti-African racist.....

Come to think of it, it does sound a lot like the Pope's recent call for rain....

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan · 08-27-2003, 10:58 PM

Quote:

I think that Nic and the writer of the above article are right. It's Christianity the critics don't like (as is very clear around here) and anti-Semitism is just a smoke screen.

Quite a lot of us around here detest Christianity. What of it? Anti-semitism is one reason why we detest it. Bloody movies that present love as an orgy of self-obliterating death-worship is another one. We can't help it if you want to defend this nihilistic garbage, but you shouldn't complain when people punch holes in your superstition. Nobody held a gun to your head and said "Worship the tribal god of ancient nomadic herding peoples!"

Vorkosigan

08-26-2003, 06:52 AM	#53
JoeWallack Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nazareth Posts: 2,357	Mel Gibson Introduces "Passion" For Women (Who Are Antisemitic Jew Haters) PASSION Created by ELIZA BETH ANONYMOUSE was introduced in ?AD (even though the "AD" designation is long before the supposed AD event). This fine smell contains jewsmine, beggaming the question, ruse and is accented with tuberrosery, vaniller vicery and mush making PASSION perfect for formal abuse. JW: Before we consider whether Mel Gibson and the John Birch tree, Holocaust and 911 denying father he fell from are just more of a long line of Liars for Jesus, let's look at some of Mel's quotes in order to decide if after 2,000 years we're finally too old for his shit: http://www.christiancinema.com/cata....newsdesk_id=20 "ROME, MARCH 6, 2003 (Zenit.org).- Oscar winning actor-director Mel Gibson is in Rome these days, working on a film on the passion of Christ at the Cinecitt� studios. (Intermission - The movie focuses on the last hours of Christ's life and stars Jim Caviezel ("The Thin Red Line," "Angel Eyes," "The Count of Monte Cristo") as Jesus. Gibson granted the following exclusive interview to ZENIT... "This film will show the passion of Jesus Christ just the way it happened. It's like traveling back in time and watching the events unfold exactly as they occurred." (Intermissionize - Blood Libel Charges) Q: How can you be sure that your version is so accurate? Gibson: "We've done the research. I'm telling the story as the Bible tells it. I think the story, as it really happened, speaks for itself. The Gospel is a complete script, and that's what we're filming." (Intermissionize - Pograms) "When you're dealing with non-fiction, a director's responsibility is to make it as accurate as possible." (Intermissionize - Inquisition) But if you hear the words spoken as they were spoken at the time, it can kind of stun you. (Intermissionize - Holocaust) JW: It's a HISTORICAL FACT that "The Passion" has been used by REAL Christians to murder innocent Jews for the last 2,000 years and that if you add up the numbers you'll find that more Jews have died in the last 2,000 years as a result of being murdered by Christians than have died from Natural causes. But is "The Passion" itself a historical fact? That's THE question. Joseph STORY, n. A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Errors...hristian_Bible http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/abdulreis/myhomepage/

08-27-2003, 10:55 PM	#59
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Very true, Bede. For many secularists and cultural leftists, the charge that Christianity, and especially the Passion Narratives, are inherently anti-semitic is just another weapon with which to bash Christianity. LOL. The truth of Christian anti-semitism is painful, ain't it? Fact is, Gibson got ambushed by Christians, Layman. This controversy is just another tree in the limitless savannah of Christians savaging Christians. What non-Anglo-Saxon Christians like myself don't get, RED, is how insensitively flippant people like you are with accusations of prejudice. It reminds me of Spong speaking at the last Lambeth conference to his opponents in Africa in a rather condescending tone as "more limited in their experience" and susceptible to "superstition." Have you actually been to Africa? Spong's article is an accurate description of the way Christianity has played itself out in Africa. Since rational discussion of this topic is unlikely as you have already implied everyone who has thoughtful responses to the naive, fundamentalist, and authoritarian versions of Christianity promulgated in Africa is some kind of racist, I will make no further comments. Perhaps Jacob Aliet or Celsus would like to add something. Or we could just go over to AllAfrica.com, and read the many stories... Gov't requests witch doctors in fight against rebels "A recent meeting between a Government minister and witchdoctors to discuss the use of magical powers to dispel the Lords Resistance Army (LRA), a rebel group, underlines growing concern that the Government is desperate to fight the insurgents, whose menace has spread eastwards, from their northern territory. Defence Minister, Ruth Nankabirwa, met the Uganda Traditional Healers Association, led by their chairman, Ben Gulu, and asked for help over the LRA matter. "Since Kony uses spirits, it is appropriate that witchdoctors cast their spell and defeat Kony," Nankabirwa is reported to have said." No doubt this African reporter Crespo Sebunya is a flaming anti-African racist..... Come to think of it, it does sound a lot like the Pope's recent call for rain.... Vorkosigan

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08-27-2003, 05:15 AM	#55
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	From someone who has seen the film: UK Spectator article I think that Nic and the writer of the above article are right. It's Christianity the critics don't like (as is very clear around here) and anti-Semitism is just a smoke screen. Yours Bede Bede's Library - faith and reason

08-27-2003, 07:59 AM	#56
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	Having read the article, but, of course, not seen the film, I'll suspend judgment. However, it is my belief that the core myth of xtianity is inherently antisemitic and to release this film at this time is provocative. The tone of the article reminds me of the defense that Dorothy Sayers used concerning her play "The Man Born to Be King." Xtians just don't get it! RED DAVE

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