Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 01-12-2006, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by singletrack1

Hah.

I have finally understood what you wrote about three months ago in a long gone thread. I agree and I thought I did then but was not sure...

It is easy but you must see the God "said" of Gen.1 to be the creation of the essence of existence that is formed in Gen.2 as Lord God after the existing image of God . . . and that is us, and all of nature, except that we can transcend human understanding and therefore have dominion . . . which in it's turn is contingent on our religous heritage wherein we are the continuity of God throughout the ages because the reign of God is in our midst; to say that we are incarnate beings with the mind of God after realization when the Thousand Year Reign becomes ours to enjoy here on earth, etc.

Until then do we only have small intimations of this but that alone points at the reality beyond the HS who is with us and will be within us. etc.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-13-2006, 06:34 AM

Even if intelligent design is a given, the odds are at best 50/50 that the God of the Bible will send his followers to heaven and not to hell. If a lying, deceiving Devil is reasonably possible, then so is a lying, deceiving God.

sharon45 · 01-13-2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Even if intelligent design is a given, the odds are at best 50/50 that the God of the Bible will send his followers to heaven and not to hell. If a lying, deceiving Devil is reasonably possible, then so is a lying, deceiving God.

The god of the bible already is a lying, deceiving god.

seebs · 01-13-2006, 03:17 PM

There's a purely pragmatic question here, which is what we could do about it either way.

For the most part, we have a sense of what is or isn't moral, and tend to judge things based on this. I am pretty sure that love is good, and that God is loving. This is enough for me to assume that God is probably good. I could be wrong; a canny evil deity could pretend to be loving. For that matter, I may be wrong in my positive evaluation of love. But I can't even conceive of a way to test those theories, even probabilistically, so I'm ignoring them.

seebs · 01-13-2006, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Even if intelligent design is a given, the odds are at best 50/50 that the God of the Bible will send his followers to heaven and not to hell.

Could you explain on what basis you assigned a number here?

sharon45 · 01-13-2006, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seebs

There's a purely pragmatic question here, which is what we could do about it either way.

For the most part, we have a sense of what is or isn't moral, and tend to judge things based on this. I am pretty sure that love is good, and that God is loving. This is enough for me to assume that God is probably good. I could be wrong; a canny evil deity could pretend to be loving. For that matter, I may be wrong in my positive evaluation of love. But I can't even conceive of a way to test those theories, even probabilistically, so I'm ignoring them.

How is it really shown that god is loving, saying that there is a god in the first place? God could have loving tendencies, but so did hitler.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-13-2006, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Even if intelligent design is a given, the odds are at best 50/50 that the God of the Bible will send his followers to heaven and not to hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seebs

Could you explain on what basis you assigned a number here?

I was assuming that if a God exists, he must be good or evil, but why can't he be amoral? At the BC&H forum, RPS, who is a Christian, said that there are an infinite number of possibilities. If that is true, doesn't that make the task of finding out what the one true God is really like much more difficult?
My position is that an evil, deceptive, lying God would be just as powerful as a good God, and that therefore he could easily duplicate anything that the God of the Bible did. If an evil deceptive, lying Devil is reasonably possible, then so is an evil, lying deceptive God.

So, if the possibilities are that God is good, evil, or amoral, it seems to me that the chances are no better than one out of three that the God of the Bible exists. If the possibilities are infinite, then the odds that the God of the Bible exists are not worth mentioning.

D2_Supreme · 01-13-2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaredM

God creates man with free will, god curses man for using it. God gives man a bunch of laws which are difficult, if not impossible to follow precisely to the letter,

More like...

God creates man with free will.
God reveals a set of moral values to man, teaching man what is good to God and evil to God
God rewards those who freely choose to live it out, while cursing those who choose not to do so

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaredM

instead of simply altering our physical reality to keep us from disobeying.

Doing so would negate free will!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaredM

But then, God came down in the form of a man, and sacrificed himself on the cross. But of course, it wasn't a real sacrifice, because he didn't really die...he was resurrected.

God coming down in the form of man and getting a simple BRUISE would have been "enough". But no, he comes down to experience arguably one of the most painful deaths carried out during His time. The fact that he experienced those tortorous pains and felt what it was like to die was is what the sacrifice is all about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaredM

Jesus allegedly died for the sins of man, but this is bullshit. Jesus cannot save us if we don't believe in him. (Whereas reality is reality, and it won't just go away if you choose not to believe in it.) Apparently, God will cast us into hell for simply not believing in him. The "sacrifice" of Jesus was no act of altruism on the part of God, because we have to submit to him in order to be "saved" from his wrath.

This is where many Catholics/Christians conflict. I'm a Catholic Christian Universalist. I throw out this notion along with the notion of Hell.

Chili · 01-13-2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharon45

How is it really shown that god is loving, saying that there is a god in the first place? God could have loving tendencies, but so did hitler.

Good point! Lukewarm is to waiver between love and hate.

Jobar · 01-13-2006, 08:58 PM

Here's an old discussion of this- If God has free will, why can he not do evil?

It starts off simple, but gets very deep.

01-13-2006, 06:34 AM	#22
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Why can't God be evil? Even if intelligent design is a given, the odds are at best 50/50 that the God of the Bible will send his followers to heaven and not to hell. If a lying, deceiving Devil is reasonably possible, then so is a lying, deceiving God.

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01-13-2006, 03:17 PM	#24
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	There's a purely pragmatic question here, which is what we could do about it either way. For the most part, we have a sense of what is or isn't moral, and tend to judge things based on this. I am pretty sure that love is good, and that God is loving. This is enough for me to assume that God is probably good. I could be wrong; a canny evil deity could pretend to be loving. For that matter, I may be wrong in my positive evaluation of love. But I can't even conceive of a way to test those theories, even probabilistically, so I'm ignoring them.

01-13-2006, 08:58 PM	#30
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Here's an old discussion of this- If God has free will, why can he not do evil? It starts off simple, but gets very deep.

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