Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vinnie · 11-24-2003, 08:14 AM

So now the Talmud is being used to reconstruct the life of the historical Jesus and its mode of death put on equal precedence with all the early first century references.

Keep digging that hole deeper.

Vinnie

Amaleq13 · 11-24-2003, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
So now the Talmud is being used to reconstruct the life of the historical Jesus and its mode of death put on equal precedence with all the early first century references.

I agree that the Jewish descriptions of an historical Jesus are too late to be of any use. That we lack any traces of early references to Jesus in Jewish writing seems consistent with the idea that his living ministry was relatively obscure. If the Gospel portrait of Jesus arguing with Pharisees was historical, we would expect some ancient traces of this disagreement consistent with the numerous debates between rabbis that are included.

In an earlier post from this thread, I directed some questions specifically to you, Vinnie. So as to make sure you either haven't noticed them or haven't had the time to respond, are you willing to share your views on the following?:

1) The living ministry of Jesus was not successful in terms of gaining acceptance and converts.

2) The living ministry of Jesus was primarily centered in the rural towns and villages of Galilee. The audience primarily consisted of low social status individuals.

3.1) The followers of the living Jesus understood him as more of a divinely inspired teacher (i.e. God's Wisdom) than the Messiah.

or

3.2) The followers of the living Jesus understood him as a divinely inspired teacher but also thought he might be the Messiah in the traditional sense (i.e. Priest/King physically freeing the Jews).

I also made some statements not specifically addressed to you but I would still be interested in your view:

Speaking of James, can we agree that he rejected the preaching/teaching of the living Jesus and only converted after his "resurrection experience"?

Can we agree that, during Jesus' living ministry, James had obtained a good reputation among his fellow Jews in Jerusalem?

Can we assume that the Ebionites accurately reflect the beliefs of this group?

Vinnie · 11-24-2003, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Asha'man
Except that there are also Jewish writings that state Jesus was stoned to death, and possibly locate that event 100 years earlier.

Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.?

and can you quote the exact reference?

Thanks,
Vinnie

Vinnie · 11-24-2003, 09:25 AM

Amaleq13, I am aware of your questions and I will attempt to answer them soon. If I don't within a day or so just harass me a little and I will

Vinnie

Asha'man · 11-24-2003, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
and can you quote the exact reference?

From the Babylonian Gemara:

Quote:

The Rabbis have taught: The left should always be repelled, and the right, on the other hand, drawn nearer. But one should not do it . . . as R. Joshua ben Perachiah, who thrust forth Jeschu with both hands. What was the matter with regard to E. Joshua ben Perachiah? When King Jannai directed the destruction of the Rabbis, R. Joshua ben Perachiah and Jeschu went to Alexandria. When security returned, Rabbi Simeon ben Shetach sent him a letter to this effect: 'From me, Jerusalem the holy city, to thee, Alexandria in Egypt, my sister. My spouse tarries in thee, and I dwell desolate.' Thereupon Joshua arose and came; and a certain inn was in the way, in which they treated him with great respect. Then spake Joshua : 'How fair is this inn (akhsanga)!' Jeschu saith to him: 'But, Rabbi, she (akhsanga = a hostess) has little narrow eyes." Joshua replied: 'Thou godless fellow, dost thou occupy thyself with such things?' directed that 400 horns should be brought, and put him under strict excommunication. Jeschu ofttimes came and said to him,' Take me back.' Joshua did not trouble himself about him. One day, just, as Joshua was reading [? reciting] the Shema, Jeschu came to him, hoping that he would take him back. Joshua made a sign to him with his hand. Then Jeschu thought that he had altogether repulsed him, and went away, and set up a brickbat and worshipped it. Joshua said to him: 'Be converted!' Jeschu saith : 'Thus have I been taught by thee: From him that sinneth and maketh the people to sin, is taken away the possibility of repentance.' And the Teacher [i.e., he who is everywhere mentioned by this title in the Talmud] has said: 'Jeschu had practised sorcery and had corrupted and misled Israel.

The date can be established by the following (from Mead):
�Jannai or Jannaeus (John), who also bore the Greek name Alexander, was one of the famous Maccabaean line of kings, the son of John Hyrcanus I., and reigned over the Jews 104-78 B.C.�

On the mode of death, from Sanhedrin 43a:

Quote:

On the eve of Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover! - Ulla retorted: Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence could be made? Was he not a _Mesith_ [enticer], concerning him Scripture says, _Neither shalt though spare, neither shalt thou conceal him?_ With Yeshu however it was different, for he was connected with the government for royalty [i.e., influential]. Our Rabbis taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah.

Also this:

Quote:

And thus they have done to Ben Stada at Lud and they hanged him on the day before Passover.

I should point out that the standard form of capital punishment was stoning followed by hanging of the body from a tree. Hanging is not a euphemism for death by crucifixion, but a literal hanging of a corpse. Ben Stada is usually considered to be an alias for Jesus.

These may or may not be historically accurate writings, and may have been created after the myth of Jesus had begun to spread. But if you are going to look for non-biblical evidence for Jesus, these can�t be ignored.

spin · 11-24-2003, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Asha'man
I should point out that the standard form of capital punishment was stoning followed by hanging of the body from a tree. Hanging is not a euphemism for death by crucifixion, but a literal hanging of a corpse.

I have said elsewhere that crucifixion was practiced in Palestine by the Seleucids during the persecution of Antiochus IV, so it is not strange that when the Pharisees got up the goat of Alexander Jannaeus (and this name comes from Jonathan, not John as Mead thought), he crucified a large group of them, and naturally enough making him rather unpopular with the Pharisees, who later took it out on the people who had advised AJ during the reign of Alexandra Salome, so crucifixion was already a standard form of execution in Jerusalem by 90 BCE. I guess it became unpopular when the Romans used it so much. Hence the situation in rabbinical times.

spin

Amaleq13 · 11-24-2003, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
Amaleq13, I am aware of your questions and I will attempt to answer them soon. If I don't within a day or so just harass me a little and I will

Vinnie

Thanks. In return, I will try not to abuse your request for harassment.

Johann_Kaspar · 11-29-2003, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amaleq13
1) Unsuccessful ministry (i.e. rejected frequently, few converts)

What kind of ministry?

Johann_Kaspar · 11-29-2003, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
[BLets see, we have Paul (contra interpolation arguments), all four Gospels, Josephus and a theological argument for Jewish involvement in the crucifixion of Jesus. All that is needed would be Paul and the Gospels though.[/B]

Why are you limited to 4 gospels? Take more and you will get a better picture about what it is all about. Literature.

Amaleq13 · 11-29-2003, 01:29 PM

I wrote:
1) Unsuccessful ministry (i.e. rejected frequently, few converts)

Johann_Kaspar asked:

Quote:

What kind of ministry?

That suggested by Q: travelling between villages and towns, preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God, calling for changes in attitude/behavior so as to bring about/enter the Kingdom and performing miracles/healings to establish the authority of this message.

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11-24-2003, 08:14 AM	#101
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	So now the Talmud is being used to reconstruct the life of the historical Jesus and its mode of death put on equal precedence with all the early first century references. Keep digging that hole deeper. Vinnie

11-24-2003, 09:25 AM	#104
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	Amaleq13, I am aware of your questions and I will attempt to answer them soon. If I don't within a day or so just harass me a little and I will Vinnie

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