Asha'man

Good questions all. You might want to take a look at The Jesus the Jews Never Knew by Frank Zindler.

He makes a convincing case that "the ancient Jews never heard of Jesus of Nazareth." With all the commentary and debate that Rabbis were famous for, and all the Jewish material that survived, there is not a single clear reference to Jesus that does not postdate the spread of Christianity. How on earth he could have escaped being talked about, if he was real, simply boggles the mind.

Atheos

I suppose I'll take a stab at it based on my beliefs when I was still a preacher.

To begin with we must take into account that all of the evangelism that was to transpire would be up to the efforts of fragile men (and women) rather than God (or the son of god). In Mark 16:15 as well as Matthew 28:18-20, the NT would have us to accept a "great commission" given by Jesus to his followers just prior to his ascention into heaven (another of those scientific absurdities, to say the least).

The implication is that it was Jesus's job to "save the world" from sin, since that was the one thing man could not do on his own (not being able to live the perfect life untouched by sin and lay it down as a sacrifice, suffering death for the sins of others, yada yada yada). But his job was complete and it was not his intention to become an evangelist.

Bible fundamentalists argue that if Jesus had written just one verse in the bible that everyone would want to loft that verse up above all other passages in scripture and believe it was the most important one, perhaps the only one that really mattered. Rather than do this he chose to write none of the bible but instead allow his followers to conclude that job. This way the NT would be considered no more "authoritative" than the OT. People would be encouraged to continue accepting both collections of books as equally authoritative representations of God's word. The process of "inspiration" would be the same for both OT and NT, that being whatever mechanism people believed resulted in God expressing his good and perfect will through the fallible hands of imperfect men.

So that's my take on what the average fundie might tell you in answer to this question. Hope this helps.

FWIW, I think most of us took your question seriously. I doubt that the attempts at humor expressed in the thread were intended to cast any doubt on the legitimacy of the question or to suppress free inquiry into the subject. I'd suspect they were all in fun. No sense taking this stuff too seriously!

-Atheos

Epictetus

Does it not seem odd to you that the God of the universe would create his sacred book like a PUZZLE so that if we didn't have the smarts to figure it out, He would send us to Hell? Each of the books of the Bible are like pieces of a puzzle that interlock perfectly! Wow, how sublime! You just have to be good at spatial problems. :rolling:

This is Argumentum ad populum. Who cares what most people think?

Epictetus

Like juicing up parties turning water to wine or cursing fig trees. Busy schedule. Silly Rabbi, tricks are for kids.

No? Like making the Almighty's plan a bit more cogent and less arcane, perhaps? Give the disciples something to read by the light of the oil lamp rather than Stephen King novels?

I'm surprised that xtians haven't moved the earliest dates of their manuscripts to be concurrent with Jesus. This would solve the myriad of problems that they must contend with since so little exists prior to the 4th century. I appreciate your saying it was written after the DEATH of Jesus, failing to mention his so-called resurrection. It shows broadmindedness.

Everyone knows that both the Father and the Son had terrible penmanship. That is probably why Moses, in frustration at trying to read the illegible scribbles on the tablets, flung them to the ground and broke them. Much like trying to read a prescription from a doctor! So, your point about not writing it himself is well-taken.

But...just exactly how did this "inspiration" take place?" Whispers in the dark? Little mental light bulbs of ideas? Hmmmm...this inspiration stuff is quite complicated.

You're sure, are you? Which one of the disciples was the official note-taker? I can just see Simon Zealotes "jotting down" things as Jesus is saying them. Something like this:

Jesus: The meek shall inherit the Earth.
Simon Z to Thomas: Did he say "meek" or "weak?" Damn, I wish he'd slow down.
Jesus: Blessed are the peacekeepers...
Simon: "Blessed are the peacekeepers"...I don't like that much! Let's see, what would sound better? Hmmmm....I got it! Blessed are the peaceMakers, yeah, better. That's that big missile that Reagan likes. Yeah, stick it to the Romans.

Eric H

Hello Epictetus,

The Bible was not written as a puzzle for theologians and scholars, it was written as a way of life.

First look to what Christ said is greatest, to love God and to love your neighbours as yourself. All the law and the prophets HANG on these two commandments.

The two greatest commandments could be compared to a hook to hang your coat on; without the hook the coat falls on the floor.

If in any doubt about anything in the Bible then look to the greatest commandments.

peace
Eric

funinspace

Yep, by humans for humans...no god necessary to explain it. But a puzzle it remains, else there wouldn't be a thousand sects, and a dogma that shifts over the timescape like the sand in the Sahara.

Unfortunately most xians seem to listen to modern day Phrases.

Thud.

Or did deeper, and find that the fallacies run deep and wide. Eventually one wonders if there's anything left to salvage, other than some useful ideas about human interaction.

Newton Joseph

[

So, if he really existed, Where's the Book?[/QUOTE]

He could not read or write, he never whent to school. or he was retarded
:devil1:

Amaleq13

Seems to me everybody would get along just fine if they only looked to the second and completely ignored the first.

Vorkosigan

Eric, those commandments are worthless. Everyone knows that one must love one's neighbor. The problem is finding out what it means in particular situations. For example...

...should we subsidize infant industries?
...what is the right amount of risk we should (compel/by compelled by) others to accept?
...where should we site incinerators/trash dumps/nuclear plants?
...how much nuclear power in the energy supply is acceptable?
...are Jones Act subsidies for the maritime and airline industries acceptable?
...when performing inter-item correlations, what is the right level at which we should eliminate survey items as either irrelevant or redundant?
...how do we determine the right level of significance for statistical analysis?
...to what extent should we pass on our beliefs to our children?
...what is the best way to manage river basins? Do we let them flood? Build dams?
...should we have a national language?
...what is the right number of members for a jury? the highest court? the appeals court?
...how much debt should the nation take on?
...should we have a national health insurance, and how should it work?

.....and so on. The bronze age goatherders and their Roman-era descendents who wrote the Bible simply never imagined living in a complex and dynamic society like ours. "Loving your neighbor" is a shallow and pointless command known to all societies. The trick is finding out what "loving one's neighbor" means. This is especially true at the level of societal ethics -- for example, there is nothing about environmentalism, energy policy, medical policy, and so forth in either Jesus or the Bible. Christians, like atheists, are subjectivists, as these questions demonstrate.

Vorkosigan

Epictetus

Thank you, Eric, for pointing this out. I would refer you, however, to Magus55, whom I quoted. He said it, not me.