Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Enda80 · 02-17-2005, 04:50 PM

Reportedly, the Ebionities accused Paul of not being a Jew. Is there any truth to this? Was he in fact a Greek Gentile who only pretended to be a Jew?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites
Epiphanius states that they criticized Paul as a Greek who converted to Sadduceean Judaism in order to marry the High Priest's daughter, and then apostasized when she rejected him.

andrewcriddle · 02-17-2005, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enda80

Reportedly, the Ebionities accused Paul of not being a Jew. Is there any truth to this? Was he in fact a Greek Gentile who only pretended to be a Jew?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites
Epiphanius states that they criticized Paul as a Greek who converted to Sadduceean Judaism in order to marry the High Priest's daughter, and then apostasized when she rejected him.

Epiphanius is writing in the fourth century CE describing (not necessarily accurately) Ebionite views that probably go back to the third century but not necessarily before.

The value of this information about the historical Paul is probably almost nil.

Andrew Criddle

Viti · 02-17-2005, 05:35 PM

Hyam Maccoby posits that Paul converted to Judaism from some kind of pagnism in The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity.

Apparently he is a well known scholar and he had lots of evidence for his views. Worth a read anyway.

Chris Weimer · 02-17-2005, 11:26 PM

Well, Paul did say that the alter to an unknown god was a good, or something like that. Very, very, very not Judaeic.

Toto · 02-17-2005, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Well, Paul did say that the alter to an unknown god was a good, or something like that. Very, very, very not Judaeic.

Paul didn't say that. The author of Acts put that speech in his mouth.

Chili · 02-18-2005, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enda80

Reportedly, the Ebionities accused Paul of not being a Jew. Is there any truth to this? Was he in fact a Greek Gentile who only pretended to be a Jew?

Well, aren't we all and aren't we all pretenders of some sort. We can pretend to be theist, atheist, Gentile, Jew, or whatever we want to be, but the fact remains that beneath all of our pretensions we are united in the unknown God that Paul was pointing at.

jonesg · 02-18-2005, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Well, aren't we all and aren't we all pretenders of some sort. We can pretend to be theist, atheist, Gentile, Jew, or whatever we want to be, but the fact remains that beneath all of our pretensions we are united in the unknown God that Paul was pointing at.

ah yeh, even atheists, like it or not, are just God's kids.

Chris Weimer · 02-18-2005, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Paul didn't say that. The author of Acts put that speech in his mouth.

We don't know that for sure. I don't think we can clearly conclude that Acts is either wholly fictitious or not, although you're right, I have my doubts. But that in itself is an entirely different scenario altogether.

Roger Pearse · 02-18-2005, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Epiphanius is writing in the fourth century CE describing (not necessarily accurately) Ebionite views that probably go back to the third century but not necessarily before.

The value of this information about the historical Paul is probably almost nil.

The claim is recorded in Epiphanius, Panarion, 16:8.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Layman · 02-18-2005, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Hyam Maccoby posits that Paul converted to Judaism from some kind of pagnism in The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity.

Apparently he is a well known scholar and he had lots of evidence for his views. Worth a read anyway.

Being well known and being well accepted on a particular point are not the same thing. Maccoby's "evidence" has not convinced many.

Quote:

In order to build his case, Maccoby rejects what Paul says about himself as lies which his gentile converts would never be able to uncover. At the same time, Maccoby exercises no critical judgment against other writings which fit his scheme, such as Ebionite charges that Paul had been a gentile. Though Acts is wrong when it speaks about Paul,the claim that Gamaliel opposed pesecution of Christians (Acts 5:34-39) is treated as definitive evidence that Pharisees did not oppose the Jesus movement in Jerusalem....

Maccoby further insists that the ambiguous portraits of Jesus' original disciples in the gospels are the result of Paulinism. This constructions ignores all critical work on the gospel traditions, which suggests that there were quite divergent strands of Christianity in the first century. The most glaring challenge comes from analyses of the Joahannine tradition. Here we have precisely the 'heavenly redeemer' that Maccoby thinks Paul has imposed on Jesus quite without any traces of the other elmenets of the Pauline synthesis that focus on the anothing deaths on the cross. The descending/ascending revealer of the Fourth Gospels is not the dying/rising cult figure of Maccoby's Paul. Further, the crisis of explusion of Christians from the Jewish community which is evidence in the Fourth Gospel (e.g. John 9:22; 16:1-4a) indicates that some Christians, at least, had developed traditions of Jesus as divine saviour and called for corresponding interpretation of the Jewish scriptures while remaining part of the Jewish community.

Pheme Perkins, Book Review: The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, Cross Currents, 36 no 2 Sum 1986, p 230-233.

Quote:

If we really want to know how Jewish Christians regarded Paul, we should look anew at the highly critical picture of him in the Ebionite documents--documents that have been ignored for far toolong, according to Maccoby.

What can be said of this thesis? Much of it appears to be simply conjecture on Maccoby's part: he has little or no documentary evidence or secondary literature to back him up. His rather psychological description of the Damascus-road conversin sounds as though Maccoby was a personal confideant of Paul. Thus, this volume cannot be accepted as a serious scholarly contribution....

John T. Pawlikowski, Book Review: The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, Christian Century (Nov. 19, 1986), p. 1041.

02-17-2005, 04:50 PM	#1
Enda80 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Boston Posts: 190	Paul not a Jew? Reportedly, the Ebionities accused Paul of not being a Jew. Is there any truth to this? Was he in fact a Greek Gentile who only pretended to be a Jew? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites Epiphanius states that they criticized Paul as a Greek who converted to Sadduceean Judaism in order to marry the High Priest's daughter, and then apostasized when she rejected him.

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02-17-2005, 05:35 PM	#3
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Hyam Maccoby posits that Paul converted to Judaism from some kind of pagnism in The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity. Apparently he is a well known scholar and he had lots of evidence for his views. Worth a read anyway.

02-17-2005, 11:26 PM	#4
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Well, Paul did say that the alter to an unknown god was a good, or something like that. Very, very, very not Judaeic.

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