renassault

Actually I know for a fact that Josephus mentions that the Essenes carried swords when travelling to fend off thieves and robbers, so... not likely they originated Jesus' idea of loving your enemy.

maryhelena

Yep, methinks Josephus had his own game plan with the Essenes.... Josephus decided that reality takes precedence over philosophical ideals - and brings Philo's Essenes down to earth...- they can go to war, carry swords and get married..... A dualism once again - Mind and Matter....

However, it's Philo's Essenes that are relevant to the gospel quotation re 'love your enemies'

As to Philo's Essenes - this old thread might be of interest...

Essenes never existed, were a Josephan invention, claims Rachel Elior

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....t=rachel+elior

renassault

I can't really agree with that. Josephus and others aside from Philo have had their statements about the Essenes confirmed. For example, graves of women and children were found at Qumran, and Qumran is found more or less to the location to which Pliny the Younger points to geographically. Philo's Essenes are more or less everyone else's, they had no motivation to lie, and there doesn't seem to be anything that can be pointed as a factor for unreliability in that regard. Josephus would have had intimate knowledge of Essenes, having been a Pharisee, general, and closely tied in with Jewish religion and politics (descended from priests).

maryhelena

Sure, one can disagree - and of course, this subject is a large one and does take this thread off topic - so I'll leave you with this quote.

Unfortunately, the website on which Rachel Elior's response to her critics was made, Jim West, no longer has the relevant pages. This quotation is taken from a Word document of her responses.

renassault

Pliny mentions Essenes in his Natural History, and also mentions that they were celibate and had no money. To claim that we have no documents of the Essenes ignores Qumran, which most certainly was an Essene outpost. And in Qumran we see celibacy which , like Paul was not forbidden in Judaism and there was no commandment to marry as can be seen from Matthew 19:12 as well. The Essenes did not denounce weapons as per the Josephus reference i mentioned, which I don't have right now. Absense of extended mention is not unusual. Josephus is our only source in many respects about 1st century Palestine and its political and historical situation.

spin

This last claim is of course utter blather. No documents from Qumran can be related to the Essenes. The fact that there was a toilet inside the Qumran compound contradicts Essene toiletry habits as per Josephus. Qumran yields evidence of pottery manufacture and the production of animal products, making it an impure context for Essenes. Qumran was not an outpost in the sense of being far out of the way: it was a prominent location overlooking activity on the Dead Sea, on the main road south along the sea coast and featured archaeological relations with Jericho. It was founded at the same time as other places down the coast, apparently as part of the Hasmonean defensive strategy. There is no "most certainly" about Qumran being an Essene outpost. It is pure conjecture from people whose commitments prevent them from knowing better (see below for example).

No, we don't see any such thing. But we see in the literature laws dealing with women and childbirth. You'll notice how many women were involved in the original analysis of the Qumran archaeological site: not one. The main component was priestly, Father de Vaux, Father Milik and Father Benoit. One doesn't expect women to get a fair show in such a context.

Kapyong

Gday,

Well, it certainly didn't originate with Jesus.

Here are some quotes from Toto's link -
http://www.unification.net/ws/theme144.htm


My Lord! Others have fallen back in showing compassion to their benefactors as you have shown compassion even to your malefactors. All this is unparalleled.
Jainism. Vitaragastava 14.5


I should be like the sun, shining universally on all without seeking thanks or reward, able to take care of all sentient beings even if they are bad, never giving up on my vows on this account, not abandoning all sentient beings because one sentient being is evil.
Buddhism. Garland Sutra 23


Aid an enemy before you aid a friend, to subdue hatred.
Judaism. Tosefta, Baba Metzia 2.26


Do good to him who has done you an injury.
Taoism. Tao Te Ching 63


God said, "Resemble Me; just as I repay good for evil so do you also repay good for evil."
Judaism. Exodus Rabbah 26.2


Conquer anger by love. Conquer evil by good. Conquer the stingy by giving. Conquer the liar by truth.
Buddhism. Dhammapada 223


A superior being does not render evil for evil; this is a maxim one should observe; the ornament of virtuous persons is their conduct. One should never harm the wicked or the good or even criminals meriting death. A noble soul will ever exercise compassion even towards those who enjoy injuring others or those of cruel deeds when they are actually committing them--for who is without fault?
Hinduism. Ramayana, Yuddha Kanda 115


Are you arguing that this principle started with Jesus? Because the evidence clearly shows otherwise.


Kapyong

aa5874

Why do you support a claim or refer to claims about Josephus and Essenes that may be ERRONEOUS?

You KNOW that is was NOT Josephus who FIRST mentioned the Essenes.

You KNOW that Based on accepted chronology of the EXTANT writings it was PHILO who could have INVENTED the ESSENES, NOT Josephus.

Why are you CONTINUING to refer to statements about Josephus and Essenes from Rachel Elior that you KNOW is virtually CHRONOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE?

Where has all rational gone?

And it was NOT even Josephus ALONE who mentioned the Essenes, a Roman writer, a NON-JEWISH writer, Pliny the Elder, ALSO claimed he was AWARE of the Essenes in the 1st century.

Astonishingly Josephus was AFTER the writings of Philo and Pliny yet some people still absurdly and illogically claim Josephus INVENTED the Essenes.

When will all the propaganda end?

It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE that Josephus INVENTED the Essenes since it cannot be shown that Josephus was the first to mention the Essenes.

I am getting extremely disgusted when people who appear to be meticulous with regards to chronology of historical events will just suddenly reverse themselves.

maryhelena

Don't you think Rachael Elior is aware of all the arguments against her position - and still finds reason to question the Essenes assumption - because that is all it is an assumption. Words without any connection to reality, to history. It's not wise to accept everything one reads on face value.....that people repeat stories only creates an urban legend - never history....And you surely do know that with the gospel JC.....

aa5874

You are "appealing to authority".

Don't you think that Scholars who do NOT support Rachel Elior are AWARE that her theory is PROBLEMATIC?

In any event, The abundance of evidence from antiquity tend to show that the Jesus story was fabricated to EXPLAIN the disastrous events, the Fall of the Temple and the calamities of Jerusalem c 70 CE.

The Fall of the Temple created a massive crisis for the Jews both politically and theologically.

In the NT, if Jesus was just a man then ONLY one prophecy was fulfilled. It was NOT the third day resurrection nor the second coming. It was the Fall of the Temple and the calamities in Jerusalem.

The Jesus story is RATHER simple to understand.

The Jews REJECTED Jesus and caused him to be crucified which FULFILLED prophecy and God allowed the Romans to destroy his OWN Temple to usher in the Kingdom of God.