Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 07-08-2007, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

I would ask, "If you reject written historical accounts, then how do you determine ANYTHING in ancient history?"

I don't reject them. I evaluate them for credibility. Then, if they are credible, I believe them, and if they are not, then I don't.

The Evil One · 07-08-2007, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faid

And yet, from dave's latest (relevant) post on the subject, it seems that he does, in fact, think the author's intent is the sole criteria to tell between fact and fiction. If they tells you it's true, it is.

It's also interesting that when asked about myths, he gave an example of a fiction. Namely, "Alice". Now I'm not any kind of literary critic, but it seems to me that the distinction between myth and fiction is pretty critical to any discussion of ancient claims of the supernatural.

Faid · 07-08-2007, 06:32 AM

Hey dave, true story: There are aligators in the sewers.

No, seriously! A friend of a friend of a friend once saw one.

Pythons, too.

Now forward this message to 100 other people to inform them of the danger.

Occam's Aftershave · 07-08-2007, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

If Josephus is correct, then we have 11 sources who agree with the ~1000 year figures and 1 source (the SKL) which disagrees. Note that I said "IF". I have not read Josephus' sources, but I'm guessing someone here has. So, as I said, IF Josephus is right on this point, then we have only to decide whether we trust the 11 sources or the 1 source. I hope you can see that this would not be a tough choice.

If C14 Calibration is correct, then we have 12 sources of independent confirmation which agree with the "much older than 10,000 year" figures and 1 source (afdave) who disagrees. Note that I said "IF". Dave have not read up on C14 calibration, but I know for a fact many others here have. So, as I said, IF C14 calibration is right on this point, then we have only to decide whether we trust the 12 independent confirmation methods or the 1 argument-from-ignorance source. I hope you can see that this would not be a tough choice.

How about it Dave, do you agree with that logic?

And before you start whining, I'll point out that this is as much on the OP topic as feathered dinosaurs.:Cheeky:

ericmurphy · 07-08-2007, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

You have to be able to tell the difference between the absurd and the reality. Dragons... fire breathing... probably not. Dinosaurs... probably. Unicorns... magical horse... or some extinct single horned horse or even the rhino theory. Each one contains a piece of reality though.

The question is what is the absurd in genesis and what is the reality? Talking snake or the long lifespans? The talking snake is impossible but the longer lifespans aren't. Science talks about aging being genetic there is no reason to believe that out of millions and millions of combinations of animals nature wasn't going to come up with one that could get around the aging problem.

The longer lifespans also explain the mental advantage we have over the animals... for me at least.

Elijah, you don't seem to get the problem here: you have no empirical evidence that humans ever lived longer than they do now. Humans' large brain (they are at or near the top of the scale for brain size relative to body size) explains their intelligence, not their life span. Elephants and some species of tortoise live as long or longer than humans; are they as intelligent as humans? And humans currently live less than a century, for the most part. Do you have any evidence that your hypothetical ancient humans were more intelligent, as well as more long-lived, than modern humans?

Your idea that because humans are smart they must once have lived for centuries is nonsensical.

ericmurphy · 07-08-2007, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Of course I believe that myths exist. It is often quite an easy decision. "Alice in Wonderland" for example was never intended by the author to be anything other than a work of fantasy. But Genesis, on the other hand, is a different story. Genesis bears many marks of being intended by the authors to be sober history. INTENT of the author is therefore important.

The fake Hitler diaries were clearly intended to be believed. They were elaborate forgeries, and for some time they were believed to be authentic.

Did that make them "sober history"?

ericmurphy · 07-08-2007, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

It seems that the primary objection to believing the pre-Flood men lived ~1000 years is nothing more than Personal Incredulity and Narrowmindedness. You see that man does not live this long NOW, therefore you say that they NEVER could have EVER.

Jesus fucking Christ, Dave. The primary objection to believing that pre-flood men lived ~1,000 years is a complete and total lack of empirical evidence that it is true. It's not "personal incredulity."

When you can come up with some actual, empirical, believable evidence that humans ever lived for even two centuries, let alone ten, then maybe you'll have something. You just don't get this "evidence" thing, do you?

Quote:

On the other hand, if you have a high view of Genesis, you are a bit more thoughtful than this. You say "Hmmm ... what if it's true? What could possibly make man live so long? Could we discover something new here? Was it the pre-Flood environment? High atmospheric pressure? What they ate? Genetics? What could it be? Could we find the key to the aging process? If we could, think how that would sell !!"

And that's how you investigate this extraordinary claim, Dave? By sitting around and wondering if it could be true? Did it ever occur to you, or to anyone else, to actually go looking for any actual evidence it could be true?

ericmurphy · 07-08-2007, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

There were never any feathered dinosaurs IN THE FIRST PLACE to go away. I challenge you to show me a single example of a genuine, feathered dinosaur. But please do so on a new thread in the EvC Forum so as to keep this thread focused.

Dave, I personally have seen photographs of fossils of feathered dinosaurs. Do you think the paleontologists who found these fossils are all frauds, just making shit up? And who is engaging in "personal incredulity" now?

Quote:

Evolutionists invoke far more magic than Creationists when you actually examine their claims in detail.

So now detailed analyses of ways flagella could have evolved from simpler structures are more "magical" than accelerated nuclear decay that would have reduced the planet to a plasma? Nice try, Dave.

ericmurphy · 07-08-2007, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

I'm going to see if I can hire some Chinese scam artists to build some 900 year old human skeletons for me ... evidently they are pretty good ... then we can settle this debate once and for all.

Maybe they'll give me a two-fer-one special and throw in some giant skeletons.

If the evidence disagrees with Dave's worldview, it must be fraudulent. Do you realize how pathetic this sounds, Dave? Why are feathered dinosaurs inherently more implausible than 40-ton sauropods?

ericmurphy · 07-08-2007, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afdave

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evil One

Loath as I am to extend the derail, I must comment that I find the above post deeply ironic given that (a) it was dave who introduced the feathered dinosaurs / flagella / pond scum derails in the first place and (b) the post that this was in response to contains a list of feathered dinosaur genera.

Mentioning feathered dinos in a list so as to compare their myth/non-myth status to that of long lived patriarchs is more on-topic than debating feathered dinos.

Dave, you mention feathered dinosaurs as an example of a myth. At least one person provides conclusive evidence that they are not a myth. Now, where is your conclusive evidence that millennium-old humans are not a myth?

07-08-2007, 06:32 AM	#213
Faid Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 1,057	Important Do Not Delete Its True I Tell You Hey dave, true story: There are aligators in the sewers. No, seriously! A friend of a friend of a friend once saw one. Pythons, too. Now forward this message to 100 other people to inform them of the danger.

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