wordy

Could it be that they did believe in Christ first and that Jesus was added late cause they had a competition between several Christ groups and the one that invented Jesus was the one that got most popular and won the war between them?

Clivedurdle

AA, I will repeat, I agree with you that Pliny only talks about a vague Christ.

You are wrong about who was doing the sacrificing - the xians were not - they were singing hymns in their own places and not sacrificing after buying an animal from the traders.

Judaic sacrifice had been centralised in Jerusalem for a long time!

aa5874

I disagree with you when you claim christians were not sacrificing animals. A Jew or any person who believes in Christ can sacrifice animals and still be called a christian.

If Christus whose followers were called Christians, as found in Tacitus' Annals 15.44, was a Jew, it is likely that he and his christian followers did follow Mosaic Laws before he was executed by Pilate.

In the Jesus story, as found in gLuke, where Jesus the Jew was called Christ and his followers Christians, animals were sacrifced for Jesus the Jew shortly after his birth according to Jewish tradition.


Luke 2:21-24 -

Animals were sacrificed for Jesus Christ of the NT whose Jewish followers were called Christians.

Now, it must follow that if the people called Christians were Jews who followed Christus or Jesus then they also sacrificed animals according to Jewish tradition.

In the Jesus stories Jesus acted as a Jew, he was even circumcised on the eight. If Christus was a Jew, he was most probably circumcised too.

And all the Jewish Christians who had a firstborn male child would have sacrificed two turledoves or two pigeons according to the Law.

There are no indications that Jesus did not follow the Jewish tradition of sacrifice. Jesus himself was sacrificed.

If Christus and his followers called Christians were Jews then they most probably sacrificed animals according to Jewish tradition.

Jews were first called Christians and sacrificed animals according to Jewish tradition or Mosaic Laws while they were called Christians.

mountainman

Not only that aa5874 but there are verifiable reports that
this partially ascetic Jesus Christ of the NT actually
gnawed on the very bones of these dead animals,
with a chrestos wine at a number of overpasses.

Tyro

But aa5874, how can you say that the sect Pliny and Tacitus speak about is NOT the Christians believing in Jesus, but argue that BECAUSE the Jesus story contains animal sacrifice, IN JERUSALEM, Jewish Christians NOT believing in Jesus, would sacrifice animals OUTSIDE Jerusalem? You base assumtions about one sect on information you believe refers to another sect, without any Jesus story. This is ungraspable.

aa5874

Please show me where Tacitus and Pliny mentioned Jesus. They did not.

At around 110 CE, Pliny in his letter to Trajan appear to have no knowledge of a character, real or imagined, named Jesus. Pliny did not not appear to know the doctrine or teachings of a character, real or imagined, called Jesus.

Pliny had to resort to torture to find out the true nature of the christian superstition, at around 110 CE.

Tacitus stated that the christian superstition originated in Judaea. Therefeore
1. Jews STARTED the christian superstition.

2. Jews practised Mosaic Laws including sacrifice with animals.

3. Jews who practised the christian superstition did also follow Mosaic Laws and sacrifice with animals.

4. Christus and his followers of the christian superstition most probably practised Mosaic laws.

And even if it is claimed that Tacitus' Christus was actually Jesus of the NT, still it can be seen based on the NT that:

1. Jews were first to practise the christian superstition.

2. Jews practised Mosaic Laws including sacrifice with animals.

3. Jews who practised the christian superstition did also follow Mosaic Laws and sacrifice with animals.

4. Jesus of the NT and the Jews who followed his christian superstition practised Mosaic Laws which includes sacrifice with animals.


It is now clear based on Tacitus that the christian superstition originated in Judaea.

The christian superstition was of Jewish origin.

Jews were the first who practised the christian superstition while they also followed Mosaic Laws including sacrifice with animals.

bacht

Maybe I'm missing something. I thought that Jews could only perform the Mosaic sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem, which was destroyed by the time of Pliny's letter. Did Diaspora Jews perform sacrifices around the empire before or after 70 ce?

eheffa

aa - I have to say that I disagree with your interpretation of the Pliny letter but you bring up a good point in noting that we do not have any reliable mention of Jesus (Gospel Version) the Christ until late First or maybe even the the second century CE. Paul appears to be ignorant of such a person & the Canonical gospels are undated & un-cited until at least the latter half of the second century...

What a curious thing this is given how the Christian faith supposedly arose from the singularly most remarkable life ever lived. Supposedly this Jesus of Nazareth spawned an entirely unique & brand new evangelistic movement which swept the empire with its compelling story of Jesus the Lamb of God, sacrificed for all etc. To read the book of Acts, the movement grew rapidly with its proponents proclaiming the story of Jesus & his redemptive sacrifice in clear unambiguous terms. The church set up bishoprics & ecclesiastical structures such that Christian authors had to write letters to the various churches scattered around the empire reminding them to obey their god appointed overlords...

When we look for corroborative evidence for all this activity & growth from other authors, or even its supposed opponents we find this remarkable vacuum. There is no mention of Christians in the Gospel Jesus sense, by anyone in the First Century CE. No Jewish outrage, no Mystery Cult protagonists outraged at the theft of their mythemes, nothing - until mid to late second century. How could these Jesus Christians have remained so invisible?

The Pliny Christians seem ignorant to a Jesus Christ - they could be nothing more than some variant mystery cult exalting the Platonic Logos. Your point stands I think in that these people have no knowledge of the Jesus of the NT. Perhaps he had not yet been invented.:constern01:

-evan

show_no_mercy

Maybe this new Hellenistic Logos cult was being oppressed because it was thought to be a new superstition and decided to latch onto an older religion to gain credibility.

Clivedurdle

aa, does not your theory that Pliny was discussing a sacrificing cult fail because of their explicit refusal to sacrifice to the emperor god and his comment about them meeting to sing hymns? The problem was they were distinctive because they were not sacrificing and were a direct threat to the state.